Final seeing

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adamrenton
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Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:18 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no "self" controlling anything. It's just a thought developed since an early childhood. Life just happens and there is no one steering it.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for seeing the truth in experience - not only in theory. Knowing directly how unfiltered life looks like and see it without any separateness. I would like to be guided through the gateless gate.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a guidance which would help me to see through the illusion once and for all. An honest and thorough assistance with the investigation. A helping hand which knows the traps involved with the subject.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
"I" have been seeking for more than a year know. I've read Eckhart Tolle, Jed McKenna, studied the teachings of Ruper Spira, Adyashanti, Jeff Foster, Scott Kiloby, Mooji and many, many others. I've been meditating (Vipassana) and inquiring (using the question "Am I aware?"), spending hours in silence and delving deeper into being without listening to thoughts. Only recently understanding happened - what I've been searching is already here. There is a deep sense of calm and thoughts and emotions just float by. However - in terms of seeing - there is still an illusory separation happening - I cannot pinpoint the exact mechanism which prevents the complete dissolution of "I".

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:18 am

Hi Adam,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:36 pm

Hello Kay,
Thank you from the bottom of the heart for your assistance. I've read the disclaimer and links provided and I'm ready to begin the exploration.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:49 pm

Hi Adam,
Thank you from the bottom of the heart for your assistance. I've read the disclaimer and links provided and I'm ready to begin the exploration.
You are most welcome. And thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:07 am

Hi Kay,
How will life change?
Life itself will be as it is. Nothing will change.
How will you change?
"I" was never here. It is an illusion. The "action figure" of Adam will seem to be the same "guy" to others.
What will be different?
The difference will be in response to life itself. Without attachments, expectations and stories of past and future. There will be no ownership. No "me" anywhere.
What is missing?
It seems like the "I" is seen through but there is still a "visible" separation occurring.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:26 am

Hey Adam,
What will be different?
The difference will be in response to life itself. Without attachments, expectations and stories of past and future. There will be no ownership. No "me" anywhere.
There is no one/no thing that is controlling whether or not the idea of attachments, expectations and stories of past and future happen or what the response to these will be. These ideas don’t disappear as there has never been a ‘you’ who has had responses to these and they have always appeared. Perception of these change…but the ideas remain.
What is missing?
It seems like the "I" is seen through but there is still a "visible" separation occurring.
So what’s the expectation here? How should this “visible” separation change? I don’t quite understand what you mean by “visible” separation? Are you expecting to become one with a tree and experience what it is to be a tree?

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for seeing the truth in experience - not only in theory. Knowing directly how unfiltered life looks like and see it without any separateness. I would like to be guided through the gateless gate.
What is the expectation here? What do you mean when you say you want to see “how unfiltered life looks like and see it without any separateness”? Describe what you are hoping to see/happen please.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:17 am

Hey Kay,
There is no one/no thing that is controlling whether or not the idea of attachments, expectations and stories of past and future happen or what the response to these will be. These ideas don’t disappear as there has never been a ‘you’ who has had responses to these and they have always appeared. Perception of these change…but the ideas remain.
Of course there is awareness of thoughts and ideas just floating by and they won't disappear - that is also experienced. Thank you for pointing out that there is nobody making choices.
So what’s the expectation here? How should this “visible” separation change? I don’t quite understand what you mean by “visible” separation? Are you expecting to become one with a tree and experience what it is to be a tree?
What might be the expectation is to see the union of all things. It seems like all of the stories and descriptions of unity created an expectation. To really see it through the eyes. There is still a feeling of being the body and being separate from the world.
What is the expectation here? What do you mean when you say you want to see “how unfiltered life looks like and see it without any separateness”? Describe what you are hoping to see/happen please.
It is known through experience that thoughts, ideas, sensations and perceptions are not the "I". However there seems to be something missing. Like some last piece of a puzzle. Some ideas might be still believed and not dropped completely. I have no idea. Amidst even the darkest thoughts of suicide and death there are is no attachment and suffering - yet the feeling of being incomplete is still present.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:00 am

Hi Adam,

Thank you for your responses. Although the separate self has been seen through, I am going to start at the beginning like I would with all the people I have guided. We will be looking at all the places that a separate self may 'hide' and to do that we will be deconstructing the separate self - the "I".

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. The most important tool for this whole exploration is to be able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:22 am

Hi Kay,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
AE shows that:
There is a thought "colour" and visible colour. After those a thought "apple". The "apple" however is only a label and cannot be found in AE. It only points to a seeming object.

Code: Select all

However, is an apple actually known?
Apple is not found in AE. It is not known. Thought creates an apple. There is only colour.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:43 am

Hey Adam,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
AE shows that:
There is a thought "colour" and visible colour. After those a thought "apple". The "apple" however is only a label and cannot be found in AE. It only points to a seeming object.
The thought ‘apple’ points to AE of thought and not AE of an apple
However, is an apple actually known?
Apple is not found in AE. It is not known. Thought creates an apple. There is only colour.
Yes…nice :)

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:11 am

Hi Kay,
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.
Whole day was spent on breaking daily activities into AE.

1. Eating oatmeal
Thought: this is oatmeal.
Seeing colour/image
Hand moving a spoon.
Thought: Hand is moving a spoon.
Tasting.
Thought: Good oatmeal.
Sensing the warmth of the oatmeal.
Sound of spoon stirring the oatmeal.

In the entire experience no actual "oatmeal" was found. Only the narrative of thought was pointing to an "oatmeal".

2. Taking a shower
Thought: Water is cold. I need to wait.
Thought: There is no "I" which needs to wait.
Walking into the cabin.
Thought: Water temperature is nice now.
Feeling of water and warmth. Sound of water.
Feeling of hunger.
Thought: I need to eat something.
Thought: Who is hungry?
Hand moves to turn of the shower.
Feeling of cold air.
Thought: It was a nice shower.

Throughout the whole experience thoughts were creating a narrative. "I'm taking a nice shower and "I" started to feel hungry". In AE only sensations of warmth, water, hunger, thoughts floating by and feeling cold were present. The thoughts were creating a story of a separate "I" doing all and sensing all of these things.

3. Working out at a gym.

This felt really peaceful - thoughts were very scarce and the sense of a doer was rarely present. There was a feeling of muscles contracting, of breath quickening, heart racing, weights were lifted and sounds of equipment was heard.
The best thing is that no doer was even needed to experience working out.

4. Walking home from the gym.

A very interesting thing has happened. Coffee was bought at a gas station. Drinking happened. Joy was present. Walking was happening. Suddenly there was a sense that all of the activities were happening automatically - without anyone present. A deep sense of peace emerged. Thoughts created a narrative - "It can't be so", "We need some goal to set", "You're gonna be a nobody". There was a sense of a huge ego backlash. However no attachment occurred and the sense of peace remained.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:44 am

Hello Adam,
2. Taking a shower
What is the AE of ‘cold’?
What is the AE of ‘walking into cabin’?
What is the AE of ‘water temperature’?
What is the AE of ‘feeling of water and warmth’?
What is the AE of ‘hand moves to turn off the shower’?
What is the AE of ‘feeling of cold air’?

3. Working out at a gym.

This felt really peaceful - thoughts were very scarce and the sense of a doer was rarely present. There was a feeling of muscles contracting, of breath quickening, heart racing, weights were lifted and sounds of equipment was heard.
The best thing is that no doer was even needed to experience working out.
What is the AE of “muscles contracting?
What is the AE of ‘breath quickening’
What is the AE of heart racing?
What is the AE of ‘weights lifting’?

4. Walking home from the gym.

A very interesting thing has happened. Coffee was bought at a gas station. Drinking happened. Joy was present. Walking was happening. Suddenly there was a sense that all of the activities were happening automatically - without anyone present. A deep sense of peace emerged. Thoughts created a narrative - "It can't be so", "We need some goal to set", "You're gonna be a nobody". There was a sense of a huge ego backlash. However no attachment occurred and the sense of peace remained.
Okay, great. Is there a hope/expectation that some sort of permanent peace will emerge?

What is it exactly that has an ‘ego’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:29 pm

What is the AE of ‘cold’?
What is the AE of ‘walking into cabin’?
What is the AE of ‘water temperature’?
What is the AE of ‘feeling of water and warmth’?
What is the AE of ‘hand moves to turn off the shower’?
What is the AE of ‘feeling of cold air’?
AE of cold is just a sensation. "Cold" is just a label.
AE of walking into cabin is just movement and sensation of it. "walking" and "cabin" are thoughts. Also there is no "walking into" in AE.
AE of water temperature is just a sensation. Both "water" and "temperature" are mind labels which describe the experience.
AE of feeling of water and warmth is just a sensation. "Water" and "warmth" again being labels.
AE of hand moving to turn off the shower is just movement coupled with sensation. "Shower" and "turning it off" come as a label.
AE of feeling of cold air is just a sensation. "Air" is a mind made word and concept. It comes up before, during or after the experience.
What is the AE of “muscles contracting?
What is the AE of ‘breath quickening’
What is the AE of heart racing?
What is the AE of ‘weights lifting’?
AE of muscles contracting is just a sensation. "Muscles" and "contraction" are created by thoughts.
AE of breath quickening is just a sensation. "Breath" points to movement and sensation, "quickening" is a sensation as well.
AE of heart racing is just a sensation. "Heart" and "heart racing" are words and concepts.
AE of lifting weights is just a sensation. "Weights" are a thought, "lifting" is a sensation and movement.
Okay, great. Is there a hope/expectation that some sort of permanent peace will emerge?
There is an expectation that somehow the feeling of being the doer and decision-maker will vanish and only "pure watching" will prevail. It is known that no "bliss" or "permanent peace" exists.
Second expectation is being able to experience complete stillness - while sitting for example - and not feeling a need to do something or become someone.

Those are of course thoughts but attachment is seen.
What is it exactly that has an ‘ego’?
In AE it seems that "ego" is just "grabbed" by nothing/no one. It just happens. Same with every decision and movement.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:15 pm

Good morning Adam,

Thank you for clarifying your breakdown of AE for me. Being clear about AE is one of the key components of this exploration. I would suggest that you continue to breakdown activities and emotions into AE for a few more days…so that AE is crystal clear.
Okay, great. Is there a hope/expectation that some sort of permanent peace will emerge?
There is an expectation that somehow the feeling of being the doer and decision-maker will vanish and only "pure watching" will prevail. It is known that no "bliss" or "permanent peace" exists.
And is this ‘feeling’ an actual sensation or is it an idea?

There has NEVER been a separate self…EVER! So why would the idea of being a doer or decision maker vanish? The question is…can you find a doer or decision maker anywhere? If not, does it matter if the idea of being a doer/decision maker still appear? And if it does matter…to what exactly does it matter to?

There is no such thing as “pure watching”. Can you stop thoughts from appearing? It may seem as if you can stop/control thoughts for short bursts...but how does “pure watching” happen when thoughts keep appearing?!
Second expectation is being able to experience complete stillness - while sitting for example - and not feeling a need to do something or become someone.
Those are of course thoughts but attachment is seen.
Good luck with that! There is no thinker or controller of thought and there is no controller of what is being awared.

What exactly is it that has “attachments”?

Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of this exploration. Expectations compare what is happening now to an imagined future happening, and if the current happening does not match the imagined, this is then labelled as ‘liberated’ or ‘not liberated and can blindside the fact that it is seen that there is an absence of a separate self. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear along the way. Also be aware that when desired expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration can arise. Let me know if and when this happens so we can look at them together
What is it exactly that has an ‘ego’?
In AE it seems that "ego" is just "grabbed" by nothing/no one. It just happens. Same with every decision and movement.
Where in colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation and sound can an ‘ego’ be found?
What is the AE of ‘ego’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:07 am

Hi Kay,

AE will be broken down further. Thank you for your support. Your pointing is very helpful Kay.
And is this ‘feeling’ an actual sensation or is it an idea?
After being aware of this expectation - it is seen purely as an idea, a thought. First an idea of there being an actual "expectation" and it's subsequent story, then a story that "there is a feeling of this expectation". Even "expectation" is just a word, a label.
Good luck with that! There is no thinker or controller of thought and there is no controller of what is being awared.
No controller of thought is seen. Thoughts just come and go.

Code: Select all

What exactly is it that has “attachments”?
It seems that "attachment" happens to no one. Even the story of "being attached". What is observed is that (as you mentioned) sometimes thought labels something as "egoic" or "non-egoic". Which is an idea created from different thoughts about being a person and the illusion of "I". Basically thoughts are "talking with each other" - trying to make sense of the moment.
Where in colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation and sound can an ‘ego’ be found?
What is the AE of ‘ego’?
Ego cannot be found in AE. There is no AE of ego. Only a thought based narrative. Thoughts label every movement, seeing, hearing, tasting and feeling and make it "mine". It is clearly seen. Thank you for pointing that out.

Something that "I" wanted to share is that lately "my dream" about being a famous artist came crashing down. There is a huge space but confusion arises. Without a goal thoughts are very loud, yet no problem arises - only awareness of it all taking place. Life seems more spacious and more "flow" is seen. There is nobody to take it personally, the story is seen through. Some fear about "being a nobody" arises but is observed and vanishes. Also the thought "a nobody" is noticed.

Basically the whole day is seen from a different perspective - everything seems automatic.

Adam


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