Non self a love story

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:18 am

Hi Floris,
Just to check, morning of march 22 I replied on your mail.
Did you receive it? Hope so if not I will do it again of course.
Have a nice day
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:51 am

Hi Derk,

Good to hear from you, thought I lossed you. I don't see a message from you, is one visible for you? Could you try to resend it?

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:26 am

Hi Floris,
That is a pity, felt very happy with the (long) post....
For the development/proces okay of course. I will have to do it again:-)
Later today!
Derk

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:43 pm

Hi Floris,

Again a reply on the post.... will be different due to the proces that continues:-)

Interesting observing time. Thoughts and feelings come and go... most of them are observed and not taken personally.
what do you find when for example the idea is there to let one of the arms raise in the air?
Some research was done with this. Most of the time there's no idea at all, it just happens. When the idea is actually there without interference the arm goes up. But... it can also be the case that there's a 'rebel thought' of not wanting to do it. Then the arm stays low. In that sense there's a difference noticed between body over mind... just happening, mind follows body/conditioning/habit/etcetera. And mind over body, when there's a choice possible... In what sense a choice is actually possible?
Thought is depends on identity, memory and the situation (maybe more).
you mentioned that in an earlier post. How is that? Is there something like identity and memory?Where can identity and memory be found then?

Another thought that occurs: Can it be that there is a thinker/feeler/'I' that cannot be labeled in a way that we can understand? That the form it has cannot be noticed by people and our dualistic way of thinking?? That there is actually a place where an identity can be found but not with the senses we have?.....

For now the effort is in observing.. connected and not to take anything personal.
Provided several times pas few days a feeling of freedom:-)

Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:34 pm

Hi Floris,
That is a pity, felt very happy with the (long) post....
For the development/proces okay of course. I will have to do it again:-)
Later today!
Derk
Ah that's a shame. Thank you for the redo:-)

If you want to, you could switch back to using I/me/my/mine, or not, up to you (hmm,is it up to 'you'?).

Some research was done with this. Most of the time there's no idea at all, it just happens. When the idea is actually there without interference the arm goes up. But... it can also be the case that there's a 'rebel thought' of not wanting to do it. Then the arm stays low. In that sense there's a difference noticed between body over mind... just happening, mind follows body/conditioning/habit/etcetera. And mind over body, when there's a choice possible... In what sense a choice is actually possible?
Good findings. Okay, let's explore
Can you go to the fridge (or wherever) and (pretend to) plan to eat something from it, pick something. Be aware of what's going with thoughts and feelings. What do you find, and come up with for the following questions?
- how does the decision process exactly go?
- Can a decision be found?
- Can the moment of apparent decision be found?
- What seemed to be the reason for the choice? Was that reason under control?
- Could something else have been picked?
- Can it be found that thought makes or is the choice? Meaning that, can it be found that the thought is the reason for what will happen?
you mentioned that in an earlier post. How is that? Is there something like identity and memory?Where can identity and memory be found then?
Yes identity, and memory are categories. And categories don't exist, in that way they don't exist. However your everyday way of feeling, that sense of being something is what the word identity refers to.
Another thought that occurs: Can it be that there is a thinker/feeler/'I' that cannot be labeled in a way that we can understand? That the form it has cannot be noticed by people and our dualistic way of thinking?? That there is actually a place where an identity can be found but not with the senses we have?.....
An understandable way of thinking. But that way of thinking comes from the idea, and subsequent feeling/sense of being a feeler/thinker/I. the idea or sense of there being a thinker/feeler is based on thought+sensations. It's just conditioning.

"That there is actually a place where an identity can be found but not with the senses we have?....." What is meant by identity here? And can something be found that HAS senses, something that owns the senses? Or can only the senses be found?
Try again to touch something (or look at something), and see if the experience, the sensations or sight, goes to anywhere, is the perception going to an interpreter, feeling, seer, self, subject? If you would experience things, if experience would be perceived/received by a you, shouldn't that be your experience than? And if it would be your experience that perception is received/perceived by you, then you should be able to find the perception coming to a self/you, no? If not, then it's not your experience, because experience is whatever is experienced, if that makes sense:-)
Or is the perception, for example sight, just 'out there'?
For now the effort is in observing.. connected and not to take anything personal.
Provided several times pas few days a feeling of freedom:-)
Wonderful:-)

Floris

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:44 pm

Hi Derk,
Are you still in? didn't receive a reply yet:)

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:16 pm

Hi Floris,
Thanx for you mail.
Still in and busy with it a great deal of the day. Really with me all the time and loads of exercise moments!
At the moment also very occupied with daily hassle with kids so I didnt have the opportunity to sit still....
Tonight I will create a moment:-)
Till then, Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:45 pm

No problem, just wanted to ask because previous time your reply got lost.
Have a good day!

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am

Hi Floris,
However your everyday way of feeling, that sense of being something is what the word identity refers to.
Thank you, that's very clear!
- how does the decision process exactly go?
- Can a decision be found?
- Can the moment of apparent decision be found?
- What seemed to be the reason for the choice? Was that reason under control?
- Could something else have been picked?
- Can it be found that thought makes or is the choice? Meaning that, can it be found that the thought is the reason for what will happen?
So easy and difficult.... nothing to find, no control everything just takes a route which can be different at different times, choice can change if thought changes, so thought leads to choice... The experience is that thought leads to behavior and behavior leads to what happens/experience.... Hardly any control, which makes me sad to be honest. The I wants do to the right thing and disappoints quite often failing. Not being able to control that.... arrggghh;-)
That means I can just surrender to what is... which sounds/seems logical, good, free, etcetera and appears to be difficult. To know and to experience are like two different things.

The past few weeks observation is really taking place and when not using I, me etc dissociation is taking place. Interesting when aware and gone when I am not aware.
Try again to touch something (or look at something), and see if the experience, the sensations or sight, goes to anywhere, is the perception going to an interpreter, feeling, seer, self, subject? If you would experience things, if experience would be perceived/received by a you, shouldn't that be your experience than? And if it would be your experience that perception is received/perceived by you, then you should be able to find the perception coming to a self/you, no? If not, then it's not your experience, because experience is whatever is experienced, if that makes sense:-)
Or is the perception, for example sight, just 'out there'?
If the I not exists, there would be no attack, fear, etcetera... some training needed! To understand and not to experience is not to understand ... or to know and not to do is not to know..... something like that:-)

Seems so clear that to let go of the attachment is to be free.
When alone it is reasonably easy and then when for example the kids come home... it's a different ballgame....

Work in progresssss...
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:34 pm

Hi Derk,

Good answers, and you're doing well. I'm just being sharp on your replies here.
So easy and difficult.... nothing to find, no control everything just takes a route which can be different at different times, choice can change if thought changes, so thought leads to choice...
How is it known that thought leads to change, or that choice changes if thought changes? Can thought found to have a power over what happens, or something along those lines?

The experience is that thought leads to behavior and behavior leads to what happens/experience....
How is it known that thought leads to behaviour? Same thing as the question above basically, but could it be only thought saying that thought is responsible for something?

Hardly any control, which makes me sad to be honest.
Good. But why you say 'hardly any control', how is it known that there is at least some control?

The I wants do to the right thing and disappoints quite often failing. Not being able to control that.... arrggghh;-)
That means I can just surrender to what is... which sounds/seems logical, good, free, etcetera and appears to be difficult. To know and to experience are like two different things.
What I wants to do the right thing? :) Can you find or prove, or point to the I that disappoints and fails? How do you know you can surrender or do anything? What 'you' is referred to here, could this you, that can only be found in language or thought be only existing in thought and language? Lift the hand, or watch it going up. How is it known that anything is doing, or responsible for it? Can you do this exercise and see that the reason isn't known, but a reason like 'don't I do it?' just can get made up?

If the I not exists, there would be no attack, fear, etcetera... some training needed! To understand and not to experience is not to understand ... or to know and not to do is not to know..... something like that:-)
There is no I that can stop existing. What exactly do you expect to go? It's good to look at those expectation. I is just thought, it won't dissolve and the thought I will keep being used. Are you trying to get to an experience where there is no identification? I'm sure you've been looking for this I but haven't found it. Do you think it can possibly be found with more looking? What would it even be that would be found?
Seems so clear that to let go of the attachment is to be free.
When alone it is reasonably easy and then when for example the kids come home... it's a different ballgame....
:-)

Take care,
Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:18 pm

Hi Floris,

Thanx for being sharp, like that of course.
How is it known that thought leads to change, or that choice changes if thought changes? Can thought found to have a power over what happens, or something along those lines?
My thought leads to choice.. different thoughts lead to different choices. No doubt about that.
Where thoughts are coming from stays an interesting question; a beliefsystem; beliefs about 'me'...repetition, conditioning? Sure is that when something happens thought is influenced. Although nothing can be found thought surely influences the meaning that is given to what happens and so the experience around what happens. And the reaction influences what happens next.
In this whole circus no I is found... true... nevertheless thought is depending on identity, memory and the situation (maybe more).
How is it known that thought leads to behaviour? Same thing as the question above basically, but could it be only thought saying that thought is responsible for something?/quote]
It is a vicious circle then...... chicken egg discussion.
If nothing influences nothing then .... then no influence is possible anymore... so then I leave everything, do nothing anymore, leave my children behind television/PS allday... just letting all go... everything fine... no me....no control... no influence... ???
This annoys me... the I gets irritated now haha... the experience;-)

Feels tempting to say that I am nothing, no self, then we can stop the mental discussion...

Let's not do that... but how do 'I' get out of this.... feels like I understand it and am stuck as well.

Just letting go of everything seems just as pointless as holding on to it;-)

Have a nice weekend!

Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:02 pm

Hi Floris,

Thanx for being sharp, like that of course.
Good, and so I'll keep doing it now, since 'you' seem a bit of a tough nut to crack! :-)
My thought leads to choice.. different thoughts lead to different choices. No doubt about that.
Thoughts don't belong to anything. It's just thought that's popping up and disappearing. Some thoughts are more emerged with, and so may have a feeling of 'I'm this', 'I'm doing/thinking this' and 'my thoughts', yet still they are just thoughts, popping up on there own. Can a owner of thoughts be found?
YOu say that different thoughts lead to different choices. Perhaps this metaphor will help; imagine a 1st person movie, where there is a first person perspective, and also 'internal' voices are heard (thoughts). Are the thoughts on the movie causing or responsible for change?
Where thoughts are coming from stays an interesting question; a beliefsystem; beliefs about 'me'...repetition, conditioning?
That sounds fair enough to say, in one sense. But why assume that thoughts literally come from anywhere or anything? that would mean that thought is already there, but travels into awareness. It might feel that 'thought doesn't come from anywhere' is a big jump to make, but just look at how your experience is or works and don't let thought add anything to it.
Sure is that when something happens thought is influenced.
Fair enough, on some level. But to be nitpicky again, 'thought is influenced' is more thought. Def in different situations there are different sort of thoughts. But a thought is not literally influenced by another appearance.
In this whole circus no I is found... true...
Does this mean that no I is experienced?

It is a vicious circle then...... chicken egg discussion.
If nothing influences nothing then .... then no influence is possible anymore... so then I leave everything, do nothing anymore, leave my children behind television/PS allday... just letting all go... everything fine... no me....no control... no influence... ???
This annoys me... the I gets irritated now haha... the experience;-)

Feels tempting to say that I am nothing, no self, then we can stop the mental discussion...

Let's not do that... but how do 'I' get out of this.... feels like I understand it and am stuck as well.

Just letting go of everything seems just as pointless as holding on to it;-)
There really is no you. Things just seem to happen. There is noone inhabiting a body, nothing that is perceiving or exerting control from it, noone that is doing anything. There is no-one there that could leave everything. If the children would be left behind the television, that would simply happen like everything has always happened. There is no I to let go of, and letting go of a thought doesn't work (and is pointless), only the persistence in thinking that there is an I, a self, a Derk might be seen through. By who would it be seen through? Not by any who, it would just happen. Just like wind is blowing without an author of it. Is this true? If there is a self, and more importantly if you would be it, there would be the experience of a seperate self, that is seperate from other things. Is such a thing found/experienced? Can something be found that could let it all go. Is there a self that could be nothing or a no self?

Take a moment to relax, sit down somewhere and close your eyes. Listen to all the various sounds that are going on. And try to find a listener of those sounds. Go with attention to what is felt inside and to the 'outside' sounds, and try to find a boundary where an inside is left and a outside is gone into with attention. What do you find?

Keep relaxt:-)
take care,
Floris

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:03 pm

Hello,
wanted to correct something I said yesterday, as it might lead to some confusion. This line 'There really is no you.' Of course you are, what was meant is there is no derk or self, or person. usually when the words 'i' get spoken, what is meant is a character/self/person which isn't referring to anything. Same way as if you would believe you are santa claus. Santa claus (aka the self/person/derk) does not exist. you or awareness are. actions just take place spontaniously without a doer, but a story is build around it (happens without a doer) like 'I did this' 'derk did this' 'i don't know what to think of this', blabla. these are just thoughts

Does it feel too mental to you? It's not ment to, it's not ment to really think about what the exercises mean and trying to draw conclusions from it. If it feels like you're struggling to figure out what it all means, just relax and let that struggle go, it's not needed. Just hang loose :-) only thing I intend of you is to look to where the questions point, that is all, no conclusions or sense making needed.

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:26 pm

Hi Floris,
Thanx!!!!!!!
Was just reading it again.. when you sent the post:-)
It's a journey, today both the no self and self are experienced....
will be back soon, now further with the 'weekend program' with the kids:-)

Nice weekend!!!!!

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:08 pm

Quite some timing there. Nice to hear that/from you, thank you and have a good weekend too!


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