Non self a love story

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Derk72
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Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:37 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I know for a long time already that there's no self. Read a lot, so I really understand a great part of it, based on religion, streams and also based on Quantum Physics.
But I also recognise the difference between knowing/understanding and experiencing in my daily life.

What are you looking for at LU?
A deeper understanding of the non-self in relation with a 'successful/happy' life. More balance in being part of everything and doing the things in life that also seem important to live life in this environment, part of the illusion I know, but also part of my life as I experience it.
Especially in relation with doing/action. I experience less action focus when I am all 'zen (non self)'. Everything is totally alright then but there's not a lot coming out if me at that point. Nothing seems to really matter then which makes it more difficult for me to do the earthy things necessary for my work/private life/ etcetera.... So I feel totally happy and without worry and end up feeling bad/sad/worried/guilty as a result.
I want this recurring pattern to change!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
More insight based on real essential questions. I want to learn on an deeper experience (non self) level, to experience more profound understanding.
As a result a deeper experience of me as non self and how to deal with my challenge as described above...
My expectation is that I hope to learn from and to be guided by someone who is further/more advanced on this track...
I really look forward to shine another light on this. I am really curious!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A lot of seeking, talking, teachings;-)
Read a lot of text and did courses based on Buddhism, Christianity, Tao, Kabbalah, A course in Miracles, and more....
Now in a divorce that I find a (painful) spiritual experience too.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:31 am

Hi Derk

I would be happy to help out, if you like.
I know for a long time already that there's no self. Read a lot, so I really understand a great part of it, based on religion, streams and also based on Quantum Physics.
But I also recognise the difference between knowing/understanding and experiencing in my daily life.
okay that's a fine start, also good that you like to take this further than just something being based on intellect.

There are a few ground rules though:
- Try posting every day, in this way there will be a momentum.
- Try being as honest as possible
- What we do here is simple, we look at our experience. Please read: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/reso ... xperience/ This is important.
- Mainly, I will ask questions, and you'll investigate/look and respond.
- Please learn to use the quote function; viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we can begin.

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:17 pm

Hi Floris,
Confirmed. I read everything:-)
Thanx very much for being my guide. I look forward to start.
Let's begin....
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:33 am

Hi Derk,
Confirmed. I read everything:-)
Thanx very much for being my guide. I look forward to start.
Let's begin....
good, lets start :)

seeing through the self is just seeing through things which were assumed to be there, but aren't. If you would be experiencing a self/person/I who is controlling, perceiving, and can be things, like long or small, smart or dumb, etc, we should be able to find those things (happening). Otherwise we aren't able to say we experience them.

So let's start out with perceiving, most people feel that they are entities who are perceiving things, like the sight of a dog, the sound of a car, the sensations of touching something. This is evident in statements such as 'I am seeing a hand'. There are 3 assumptions there to look at now:
- The 'I am' which is seeing the hand'
- The 'seeing' which is what this 'I' is doing/undergoing
- The 'hand' which is the seen object by the 'I'.

Let's investigate this.
Optimally be somewhere where you can be relaxed and undisturbed, pull out your hand, or any other object you like, and look at it. Then answer these questions from your experience:
- Can you find an I which is (doing) seeing?
- Can you find eyes or anything else, which are (doing) seeing?
- Can you find the experience 'the seen thing, e.g. the hand' going to a place in the head where it is received?
- Can you find something which is intrepeting the seen thing?

After these, 'go to' (notice) the experience called seeing, and then 'go to' the experience called the seen thing, e.g. the hand. Toggle your attention between the place/experience of these two thing, the 'seeing' and the 'seen thing(s)', and answer:
- Can you find a difference between what you call seeing and the seen?
- Would it be accurate to say these are the same experience?

After that, what do you think about the statement 'I see a hand'? is this your experience, or if not, then what is?

Good luck, and if something is not clear, please ask:)

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:33 pm

Hi Floris,
I can't find anything. Not an I. I can feel my eyes but not what they are doing.. the seeing, just hapening. The hand is there and do not experience a place where it is received, how the interpretation is finding place is nowhere to be found.... It is all just there, nothing to find.
And no, I do nothing, seeing is just there. I am doing nothing that I can indicate.... The hand is just there....
No difference between the seeing and the seen. that would mean it is indeed the same... the same experience.
Feels now like there's nothing to indicate.... its all just there without doing anything.
Sort of strange it is...
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:40 pm

Hi Derk,
Feels now like there's nothing to indicate.... its all just there without doing anything.
Sort of strange it is...
Good findings, and good noticing. Let's take it a little further :-)

How about feeling? Let's broaden what we did with seeing, and apply it to the feeling aspect. I won't go into hearing, smelling, tasting, but you could do it on your own if you want to explore this. If so, I suggest looking into hearing, the other 2 senses are less significant.

Normally we say 'I feel a table', so, let's explore that. Put your hand on something that gives some sensations to work with, e.g. the table, close your eyes and inquire:
- can you find something which is doing the feeling? An I, a hand, a body..
- without refering or using thought, can you find something that is the object of the feeling (like a table)? Or perhaps do you just find sensations?
- what could be said about the experience, without believing thought?
- do you notice how images/thoughts are imposed onto the experience?
- Do you find the sensations going to a perceiver or interpreter?

After doing that, is 'I feel a table' your experience? If not, then how does feeling work?

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:17 pm

Hi Floris,
Did it several times today, touching things, materials and of course the table, with my eyes closed... nothing is doing anything and no object is there when I have my eyes closed... just the experience of feeling, hard to know the difference between feeling something being hand or material, can't really find a difference between the touching or being touched.. Thought is about interpretation, the experience is without meaning, just experiencing structure (hmmm indeed... that is a thought too).
Perceiver, interpreter... can it be both? Perceiver when I just feel... the interpreter comes immediately when there's in inconsistency in the structure, when it changes it starts to think.. hey what's that?

I feel a table is an interpretation feeling the different aspects of the tabel... when I just touch and feel the table top I experience the feeling without meaning...

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:43 am

Hi Derk,

Could you qoute the messages to which you are replying, makes it easier to known what your answer was to what question, and if you're missing anything.

nothing is doing anything and no object is there when I have my eyes closed... just the experience of feeling, hard to know the difference between feeling something being hand or material, can't really find a difference between the touching or being touched.. Thought is about interpretation, the experience is without meaning, just experiencing structure (hmmm indeed... that is a thought too).
good findings.

Perceiver, interpreter... can it be both? Perceiver when I just feel... the interpreter comes immediately when there's in inconsistency in the structure, when it changes it starts to think.. hey what's that?
Can you find an perceiver or interpreter? Or is this just thought?

Let's look at thought in a similar way. This might be more tricky, so if needed we take some extra time. Just follow where the questions leads to, and notice what's there. Some questions might overlap, and some are just the same question, put in a different jacket:)

Please sit, relax, go to the experience called thinking, and inquire:
- can you find a thinker of thought?
- can you find something that knows thought?
- can you find where thoughts come from?
- can you find something that knows or interprets thought?
- can you find anything at all, responsible for thought?
- can you find something thought belongs to?
- can you find an brain, mind or I producing thought?

- is it known what the next thought will be?
- can you select a range of thought, and choose to not have certain thoughts arise?
- can thought be stopped? Not by hitting your head with a pole, or trying to distract yourself, but directly?

Good luck with those,
Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:16 am

Hi Floris,

Thnx for all questions..
I've been really busy the past days with experiencing/observing in order to answer the questions...
- can you find a thinker of thought?
- can you find something that knows thought?
- can you find where thoughts come from?
- can you find something that knows or interprets thought?
- can you find anything at all, responsible for thought?
- can you find something thought belongs to?
- can you find an brain, mind or I producing thought?
The first and direct answer that popped up to all questions was NO... after two days of really doing my best.. the answer is still NO. There's nothing to be found!
Although... there is a difference in type of thoughts during the days. I am observing my thoughts and experience change when things happen/occur. Triggers lead to different kind of thoughts. I am sort of a victim to it...thought change.. and I become an effect of the things that happen. Thoughts 'overwhelm' me...especially the ones I didn't really want to think. I was very aware of that. It annoyed me and made me wanting to control/change the thinking. And I did my best.
- can you find where thoughts come from?
I have been observing that. If I believe something different about me or my environment my thoughts change with it.
When I have the great feeling of belonging and being great I have different thoughts then when I believe I am worthless...
So I experiences my thoughts were influenced by my belief... and then the question arose; can I find where my beliefs com from? Brings me back to childhood that is no longer a place to find other than memories that aren't accurate.. And where are they stored by the way? Nowhere to be found... just there as a thought.
- is it known what the next thought will be?
- can you select a range of thought, and choose to not have certain thoughts arise?
- can thought be stopped? Not by hitting your head with a pole, or trying to distract yourself, but directly?
So I really tried to influence my thoughts by checking my belief....
I never know exactly what my next thought is.. but the next thought will be in line with the thought before (although at some point it stops/changes, I can't be negative or positive for ever;-) In that sense I hardly feel any control.
But I also experience that I am in fact able to influence my thoughts... And that is when I am fed up with it or when I sort of say STOP what is happening now?.. when I am aware of my thinking.. and what belief is triggered in me... not always but in some occasions I am able to stop/change it. Meditation helps too, I connect to a different feeling/experience.. Makes me feel good!!

Still, I feel a bit like a toy. Worse, at this moment I feel a bit like an idiot. I feel like I am in a game controlled by someone/something that I do not know, cannot find, etc.... I have this desire to elevate my consciousness and at this point I feel like I am going down a bit.. I want control and sometimes I have the feeling I have it... and then I don't (it is stronger than me in a way). So I want to control my thoughts and in stead I feel controlled..... Makes me feel a bit sad too...
Change of thought: I have to let go...feels better right away (and I know that will change later..) ;-)

Regards, Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:02 pm

Hi Derk,

The first and direct answer that popped up to all questions was NO... after two days of really doing my best.. the answer is still NO. There's nothing to be found!
Although... there is a difference in type of thoughts during the days. I am observing my thoughts and experience change when things happen/occur.
Good work! One of the question of the list was 'can you find something thought belongs to' and to all questions you anwered no. But in the next sentence you say 'I am observing MY thoughts', could it then be that those thoughts are not my thoughts, but just thoughts, not belonging to anything?

I am sort of a victim to it...thought change.. and I become an effect of the things that happen. Thoughts 'overwhelm' me...especially the ones I didn't really want to think. I was very aware of that. It annoyed me and made me wanting to control/change the thinking. And I did my best.
I gather here that there is an assumption that experiences happen to (a) you, and that you can control thought. Could you take a look again at your experiences, and see if you find evidence for both assumptions? Can you find a victim of thought, and what gives the impression (the sense) that thought can be done and controled? Could it be true that thought just happens, even the ones that feel controlled?

I have been observing that. If I believe something different about me or my environment my thoughts change with it.
When I have the great feeling of belonging and being great I have different thoughts then when I believe I am worthless...
So I experiences my thoughts were influenced by my belief... and then the question arose; can I find where my beliefs com from? Brings me back to childhood that is no longer a place to find other than memories that aren't accurate.. And where are they stored by the way? Nowhere to be found... just there as a thought.
Good and valuable findings. However I ment it more literally, can it be found where thought comes from? Can they be found coming from a certain direction, can they be found coming from a brain, or mind, or perhaps does it seem they just arise, not coming from any place, head, mind, location, etc?

So I really tried to influence my thoughts by checking my belief....
I never know exactly what my next thought is.. but the next thought will be in line with the thought before (although at some point it stops/changes, I can't be negative or positive for ever;-) In that sense I hardly feel any control.
But I also experience that I am in fact able to influence my thoughts... And that is when I am fed up with it or when I sort of say STOP what is happening now?.. when I am aware of my thinking.. and what belief is triggered in me... not always but in some occasions I am able to stop/change it.
Okay so at times you hardly feel control, but there is still an overall sense that you can influence thought. Can you descripe to me what is it that can stop/change thought when there is the feeling of being fed-up with thoughts? Could you also give an estimation of where that controller is located?

Still, I feel a bit like a toy. Worse, at this moment I feel a bit like an idiot. I feel like I am in a game controlled by someone/something that I do not know, cannot find, etc.... I have this desire to elevate my consciousness and at this point I feel like I am going down a bit.. I want control and sometimes I have the feeling I have it... and then I don't (it is stronger than me in a way). So I want to control my thoughts and in stead I feel controlled..... Makes me feel a bit sad too...
Change of thought: I have to let go...feels better right away (and I know that will change later..) ;-)
hmm, we'll get into this mess later ;-) for now, consider that all the I/me/my/mines don't point to anything, and that they are just thought, arising on their own.
You know what, why don't you try to write the next message without any use of the words I/me/my/mine. So instead of 'I observed my thoughts to ..' it becomes 'it was observed that thought'.

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:22 pm

Hi Floris,

Thank you for the quick response!
..But in the next sentence you say 'I am observing MY thoughts', could it then be that those thoughts are not my thoughts, but just thoughts, not belonging to anything?
How come we all have different thoughts... so thought isn't random is it? 'The thinker/observer' understands the concept of no-self... nevertheless thoughts come up in a different way for different people... your thoughts are different than mine (and please pardon me for using 'your' and 'mine')... puzzling thoughts!

How do thoughts arise then?
However I ment more literally, can it be found where thought comes from? Can they be found coming from a certain direction, can they be found coming from a brain, or mind, or perhaps does it seem they just arise, not coming from any place, head, mind, location, etc?
And yes yes yes despite all searching...no origin, mind, I or brain can be found!!
Okay so at times you hardly feel control, but there is still an overall sense that you can influence thought. Can you descripe to me what is it that can stop/change thought when there is the feeling of being fed-up with thoughts? Could you also give an estimation of where that controller is located?
The experiences observed and described are the difference of feeling/beliefs and the thoughts that arise from that...

The observation is that there's some cause and effect happening due to things that happen or things that are said and done... it triggers and that influences thought. It just happens, right?...;-)

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:26 pm

Hi Derk,

Let's keep the no I/me/my/mine up for a couple messages more. To make it fair, I (oops) will join. Language (when unquestioned) has such a huge impact on thinking, and subsequent feeling and behavior, that it formes unknowingly a huge part of our lives. Trying to use language more consciously and without words such as I, can help bring to light some unquestioned assumptions, and makes it easier to see that perhaps no doer and subject is needed. Question, is a difference felt by not using the words I/me/my/mine?

How come we all have different thoughts... so thought isn't random is it? 'The thinker/observer' understands the concept of no-self... nevertheless thoughts come up in a different way for different people... your thoughts are different than mine (and please pardon me for using 'your' and 'mine')... puzzling thoughts!
Thought is dependend on identity, memory and the situation (maybe more). So not completely random, but not relevant either, doesn't thought run in a million of ways while meditating?
And is the concepts of no-self really understood by a thinker/observer? Is there such a thing as a thinker/observer? Can it be found and described?

How do thoughts arise then?
Any answer to 'how' is just a story, sometimes useful and describing something, sometimes not pointing to anything. Thought just arises.

And yes yes yes despite all searching...no origin, mind, I or brain can be found!!
Good!:)

The experiences observed and described are the difference of feeling/beliefs and the thoughts that arise from that...
Good observations. So when there is the sense that there is control, when looked for/investigated, only feelings and certain thoughts are present, giving the idea or sense of control?
How about letting the most intimate or real sense of Derk/self/I arise, and see what comes up and is found?

The observation is that there's some cause and effect happening due to things that happen or things that are said and done... it triggers and that influences thought. It just happens, right?...;-)
Yes it just happens. Has it ever been experienced that suddenly something is remembered that needs to be done, or the like, and that the thought comes 'Oh I remember, I still need pick up ....'? The thing to be remembered suddenly pops up (out of nowhere and without any doer/thinker) and ownership is claimed in/by thought.

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Hi Floris,
Question, is a difference felt by not using the words I/me/my/mine?
Yes there is a difference felt, it becomes more general and makes it less personal... non-personal.... haha! ...non-self:-)
Neutral feeling arises...

So if nothing is taken personal anymore... nothing to be felt... every thought is ok because it is general... and not 'mine'.
hmmm. How than with happy thoughts.. not 'mine' either... not attached to anything/anyone/anytime/anybody/anywhere...
Than the feeling becomes more or less a bit sad/alone/meaningless... interesting. Now what?
How about letting the most intimate or real sense of Derk/self/I arise, and see what comes up and is found?
All kind of thoughts and feelings... positive and also less positive... Location nowhere to be found...
All kind of thoughts pop up now! ... And what about dreaming, wanting, a will to do/build/create/share something?... What to do?... Where is will and drive coming from? (and also the feeling of need to have drive, to do things...aaaahhhh)
Also these 'things', this drive or lack of is of course nowhere to be found.. so it has to do with identity, memory, conditioning, etcetera... (thoughts about this arise now, questions like can change/creation/good parenthood/career etcetera really happen if there is no me, I, Derk,...)
Yes it just happens. Has it ever been experienced that suddenly something is remembered that needs to be done, or the like, and that the thought comes 'Oh I remember, I still need pick up ....'? The thing to be remembered suddenly pops up (out of nowhere and without any doer/thinker) and ownership is claimed in/by thought.
okay now... so, surrendering to all thoughts, not personal, so no meaning, not taking it seriously, just following,.... and being curious and wonder what comes up..?

Wow...so interesting this, really the will to understand.... and also feelings of resistance/irritation.

Derk

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:06 pm

Hi Floris,
and now (past hour) experiencing sort of vacuum. Everything, everyone, ... is fine. No need to react to anything...
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:08 pm

Hi Derk,
Yes there is a difference felt, it becomes more general and makes it less personal... non-personal.... haha! ...non-self:-)
Neutral feeling arises...
;-)

So if nothing is taken personal anymore... nothing to be felt... every thought is ok because it is general... and not 'mine'.
hmmm. How than with happy thoughts.. not 'mine' either... not attached to anything/anyone/anytime/anybody/anywhere...
Than the feeling becomes more or less a bit sad/alone/meaningless... interesting. Now what?
Sad/alone/meaningless will pass and is a good sign, just let it be there.
'Now what?', what's the need to have a next thing in mind?

All kind of thoughts and feelings... positive and also less positive... Location nowhere to be found...
All kind of thoughts pop up now! ... And what about dreaming, wanting, a will to do/build/create/share something?... What to do?... Where is will and drive coming from? (and also the feeling of need to have drive, to do things...aaaahhhh)
Also these 'things', this drive or lack of is of course nowhere to be found.. so it has to do with identity, memory, conditioning, etcetera... (thoughts about this arise now, questions like can change/creation/good parenthood/career etcetera really happen if there is no me, I, Derk,...)
Perhaps all these things have always already been happening without a Derk. See how anything happens and look for a doer/controller of the deed, what do you find when for example the idea is there to let one of the arms raise in the air?

okay now... so, surrendering to all thoughts, not personal, so no meaning, not taking it seriously, just following,.... and being curious and wonder what comes up..?
Sounds good, give it a go.

Hi Floris,
and now (past hour) experiencing sort of vacuum. Everything, everyone, ... is fine. No need to react to anything...
Derk
:-) let me know in your next writing what happened with that, and what the current perspective is on person/self/I/derk

Floris


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