Advice on depending liberation

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ChrisGus
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Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:54 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is a seeing that thoughts, emotions and sensory experiences are all that is being lived and there is no specific “me” that this is occurring for

What are you looking for at LU?
Clear, direct and straight forward advice to aid in the deepening of liberation and an honest perspective on what might be causing a slipping back and forth between no self and self identification....

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Direct and honest help from someone who can relate to where these blockages are and offer advice on pushing through them. If there is deep seeded “I” identification that needs honesty to be truly looked at.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Jed McKenna, Theravada, Zen, Tony Parsons, Nathan Gill, both Krishnamurti‘s, Ruthkess Trurh from a distance...the list goes on. Been at it for approximately 12 years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:28 pm

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the intro.

We can dig around a bit together, if you'd like.

With best wishes,
John, an old wizened guide here. :)
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:18 pm

Hey John,

Thanks for responding so quickly. Maybe I’ll give you an idea where I’m at.
There’s an awareness that all experience is happening in this aliveness,(sorry, can’t think of a better word to use ;)
Including the drifting in an out of thoughtbound self identification. This self identification or forgetting appears to be dramatically losing strength but along with this comes frustration and thoughts that somethings missing and more needs to be done to live in the realization that this selfless moment right now is all.
Hope it makes sense, I don’t want to read over it and change the spiel to keep it as honest as possible.

Best,
Chris

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:07 pm

Sorry John, one more thing.
It appears that there might be an attachment to a subtle idea that what I am is “awareness” or a substrata of nothingness which has been turned into something tangible. Could this be the I thought hiding out?

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:50 pm

Hi Chris,
There’s an awareness that all experience is happening in this aliveness,(sorry, can’t think of a better word to use ;)
Including the drifting in an out of thoughtbound self identification. This self identification or forgetting appears to be dramatically losing strength but along with this comes frustration and thoughts that somethings missing and more needs to be done to live in the realization that this selfless moment right now is all.

The good thing about writing stuff down is that we get to see our perceptions reflected back to us, so we can see the kind of narrative being presupposed.

So, when what you're calling 'self-identification' is happening, what is it that is happening precisely? See if you can catch it in the act. Will likely be vague and amorphous, but that's ok. Be inside the happening called 'self-identification', and report from there.

Ask yourself, what does 'losing strength' point to?

For now, set aside the whole 'somethings missing and more needs to be done to live in the realization that this selfless moment right now is all' narrative. Can always have it back later. :)

It appears that there might be an attachment to a subtle idea that what I am is “awareness” or a substrata of nothingness which has been turned into something tangible. Could this be the I thought hiding out?

Good spot! More narrative, and yes, a little nook to live out as an awareness junky. :)

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:29 am

Self identification is like a drunken dream where the narrative appears to be running the show but when this tightening releases it’s seen that life has moved along regardless.
This narrative is much more subdued than in the past but I suppose the paradox is that the past only exists in the narrative.
“Losing strength” points to what appears to be the subconscious or the birth of thought. When observed the thoughts appear to be forming out of nothing, literally like mist that condenses and becomes defined then back in the same direction and gone.
Another point of interest is the observable energetic tension or knot above the naval and below the ribs which seems to be active fairly frequently. It dissipates when focused in on but this almost acts as as anchor to the body. It’s almost saying, “hold on a minute, you’re this body”.
When there’s a release of tension overall and there’s a settling in to this experience there’s a sense that the boundary of me has expanded out to encompass all sensory experience.

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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:33 am

I see that this tension as well as other body sensations are not “mine” but rather just another experience passing through like hearing the hum of the fridge or a bird outside.

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:17 pm

Chris,
Self identification is like a drunken dream

Ok good work.

Or to put another way, this experience (like a being in a drunken dream) I'm calling 'self-identification'.
But is it?

What if it isn't anything of the sort?
What if, what you've been working with all these years, is not what you thought it was?

For now, approach this objectively.
You know it's a distinct experience, like being immersed in some narrative dream.
But we're taking a step back from knowing what it is.
Instead, we're taking the approach of not-knowing what it is, and not needing to know what it is.

But we remain curious as heck, about what happens.

For example, give yourself three minutes and see if you can bring it on consciously.
Give it all you got.

Can you immerse yourself?

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:33 pm

Hey John,


There’s just an open space for experience.
Quietly in the distance is the inner narrative but it’s only incoherent whispers.
Body tension is also further away in the background.
Sights and sounds of the apparent world are taking precedence.
A fear wants to arise as a reaction to non existence.
There’s a remembering that this is how it was as a child.

Best,
Chris

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Also something of note,
There continues to be an underlying sense of faking it or dishonesty, maybe a form of guilt. A feeling that maybe this isn’t it or somethings not quite right. Maybe a mild sadness. This dissipates when it’s seen that all this is “it” but does return while taking part in daily life

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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:29 pm

There’s just an open space for experience.
Quietly in the distance is the inner narrative but it’s only incoherent whispers.
Body tension is also further away in the background.

The moment we bring a conscious approach into play, we're unable to drop into a 'immersed drunken state'.
Funny that.
Reflect on how much of your waking day you are really conscious - as opposed to some dreamy, or 'drunken' state?

Sights and sounds of the apparent world are taking precedence.

Hope you don't mind, but for now, can we drop the 'apparent'.
Let's just plainly speak about, say, sights and sounds of the world.
We don't want any dogma or doctrines distorting the honest straightforward experience of living.

But yes, I get what you're saying about sights and sounds of the world coming to the fore, because you are less 'in the head', and more naturally experiencing life without the subject-object business of 'I am hearing the crow', but more towards 'hearing the crow' or 'hearing sound'.

A fear wants to arise as a reaction to non existence.

This kind of fear of non-existence shows up in reaction to what we THINK our existence was - this persona, characterised narrative called 'Chris' which we had taken to be a real independent self and, most importantly, WHO I AM.

If it wasn't deemed to be WHO I AM then we wouldn't give a flying fuck.

And that PERCEPTION - that this character 'Chris' is WHO I AM - is what this is all about.

For example, what if 'Chris' carried on doing it's thing but it was not WHO I AM? What then?

There’s a remembering that this is how it was as a child.

Things were much simpler then. :) Before the shelves started filling up with concepts.

There continues to be an underlying sense of faking it or dishonesty, maybe a form of guilt. A feeling that maybe this isn’t it or somethings not quite right. Maybe a mild sadness. This dissipates when it’s seen that all this is “it” but does return while taking part in daily life

This melancholy is a useful messenger, and you do right to notice and pay it heed.
There's part of you wants this, and part of you doesn't.
They are in conflict. You're likely sad about that, about being in conflict.
Wouldn't it be nice if we were all brave warriors, fearlessly going where we least want to go.

But we're not. So, we humbly accept where we are and do the best we can with what we have.
Each day is a new day.

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:47 am

When there’s resting in this unfolding experience it’s seen that the I tensions, thoughts, images etc. are subtlet vying for a route “in”.
It appears to be an addiction. The habit of habits.
Why has the soaking in to the images and tensions taken precedence over the calm non attached observing?
There is only this and it’s fresh and new, beautiful sounds, everything looks right just how it is. Questioning it is a back door in for the I.

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:42 am

The issue could possibly be that there’s a belief that this can’t be as easy as it really is and that creates a huge wall. The I wants to weave a tale of difficulty to keep a search going. It’s all right under this nose, these eyes, the ears and so on. All right here to be experienced as it freely comes and goes. Thoughts of past and future, tension/contraction comes and goes for no one in particular.

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:46 pm

Chris,

When there’s resting in this unfolding experience it’s seen that the I tensions, thoughts, images etc. are subtly vying for a route “in”.
It appears to be an addiction. The habit of habits.
Why has the soaking in to the images and tensions taken precedence over the calm non attached observing?

In a nutshell, we learned to abstract the world, and then ourselves. It's not so much a habit, as what we have become.
But that's ok. We don't want to buy into these narratives of it being bad, or we're somehow victims of it, or if only it wasn't happening, all would be wonderful. No. It is happening. It's what we do with that, how we see that.

There is only this and it’s fresh and new, beautiful sounds, everything looks right just how it is. Questioning it is a back door in for the I.

Again, don't buy into the bliss narrative, it'll only bite yer legs off. :)
We just keep it sane, light, intent and objective.
See what's happening, as narrative-free as possible.

The issue could possibly be that there’s a belief that this can’t be as easy as it really is and that creates a huge wall. The I wants to weave a tale of difficulty to keep a search going. It’s all right under this nose, these eyes, the ears and so on. All right here to be experienced as it freely comes and goes. Thoughts of past and future, tension/contraction comes and goes for no one in particular.

You're spot on. It is always sneaky beliefs/perceptions that shape what we see. When we see them, that's cool. :) It's a bit like Scooby Doo, when we discover it was the caretaker all along projecting a monster into the air. :)

You mention 'no-one in particular'.
Stroke the chin. Read these words. Yes, you.
This is the one.

However, this is not the same as saying you are this personified being called 'Chris'.

You see the difference?

Let us keep our place on the identification as 'Chris' - rather than the no-self business.

I take it that 'Chris' is not a living being for you?
But that from time to time, you find yourself immersed in the costume.

Did 'Chris' ever exist as a living being?
If not, what have you been identifying with all these years?

Best,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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ChrisGus
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Re: Advice on depending liberation

Postby ChrisGus » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:40 am

Sorry about the bs. I’ll try and check that!
It’s seen that “Chris” is a patchwork character but at times life situations obscure the view. There appears to have never been a Chris. Just a fictitious identity made up and interchanged along the way.


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