See it much of the time but not always

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Zee
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See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:52 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is Life/existence but there is no self that I can point to and say this is me; especially not a thought because thoughts come and go.

What are you looking for at LU?

Less resistance to what is happening in my daily life. I feel that resistance must be a residual belief in a "me". I want to return to how things were completely let go in 2008 when I was faced with numerous challenges. Despite letting go, everything turned out well without a me running the show. I thought that experience was proof enough but since then, there's been a gradual re-emergence of the me supposedly running things and the me who is dissatisfied with outcomes or concerned about outcomes.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

A return to a clearer seeing of what is. Letting go of the thoughts that I need to control things and keep juggling all the balls without dropping one because it's already been seen that this is unnecessary but the idea that things "should" or "shouldn't be happening" seems to be returning.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Catholic upbringing, meditation in conjunction with martial arts

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm

Hello Zee,

Thank you for your PM. I am thinking that you would like me to guide you? If not...that is okay. You have seen how I guide and you have seen that I can also be very stern. The purpose of this guiding is for me to point and for you to look, that is why we are called guides and not teachers. By looking you find your own answers and see for yourself what actually is. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zee
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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:09 am

Thank you for your PM. I am thinking that you would like me to guide you?
Hi Kay, I'm glad you got my PM. It still said Outbox and not Sent, so I figured maybe I didn't have privileges yet to send a PM or something. And, yes, I'd be honored for you to be my guide; you're a rock star!
I'm familiar with all the links you attached, but I read them again after you posted.
I'm very eager to be guided! I'm looking forward to it and I'm sure that with having a one-month old daughter, I'll stick to the facts and be too tired to come up with clever ideas outside of direct experience.

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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:47 am

Hi Zee,
Hi Kay, I'm glad you got my PM. It still said Outbox and not Sent, so I figured maybe I didn't have privileges yet to send a PM or something.
The message stays in the Outbox until the recipient reads it. Once it has been read it should then show up in the Sent box.
I'm looking forward to it and I'm sure that with having a one-month old daughter, I'll stick to the facts and be too tired to come up with clever ideas outside of direct experience.
Congratulations on the birth of your daughter! You may fall asleep while you are doing the exercises given LOL. I remember those days of no sleep. :)

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and using the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the 4 following questions::

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zee
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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:25 am

How will life change?

Less (or no) resurgence of an imaginary character along with the idea that things should or shouldn’t be happening or worrying about what could happen or might not happen that needs to happen. Seems to already be improvement. Earlier in the week, daughter was denied for large health insurance bill coverage and automobile was stranded in 29 below zero. In neither situation was there undue stress or panic. Both situations resolved with surprisingly little aggravation.
How will you change?
This is hard to answer as there was a big pop reading your guided thread with someone else asking about if there’s a me in seeing, hearing, sensation, taste, smell, thought—and I couldn’t find even a hint of me in any of those unless I went into content of thought, which is just imagination and not actual experience. There used to be a persistent feeling that there was something unnameable & empty but alive and aware behind all of this, but when I was reading your post and really looking there was only seeing, hearing, etc. Not a mediator of any sort and not even a profound principle doing the seeing, hearing, etc. When an image appears, all that exists is color & shape. It can’t be said what the image is and there is no evidence of anything whatsoever in addition to the coloring & shaping (no experiencer). So, no change since nothing is there that I can call a me that undergoes change.
What will be different?
Everything. There will only be seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, sensation, and thought but that experiencing will continually have a different flavor. Always new.
What is missing?
Nothing is missing except for completing the work here for best assurance that actual experience continues to be honored and not imagination.

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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:10 am

Hi Zee,

What a lovely post to read! Thank you. It certainly was great to hear that you had a ‘popping’ moment when you saw there was no ‘me’ in colour, sound, sensations, taste, thought or smell. The simplicity of it is beautiful…unfortunately we are so used of everything being complex…that when the simplicity of what IS shows itself there is a disbelief in the simplicity of it all.
What will be different?
Everything. There will only be seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, sensation, and thought but that experiencing will continually have a different flavor. Always new.
Everything is different and yet nothing is different. Life still lifes and continues as it always has done. Life and the character called Zee are seen through a new filter and this filter is what brings about the perception shift of what everything actually is. However, this does not happen overnight!
What is missing?
Nothing is missing except for completing the work here for best assurance that actual experience continues to be honored and not imagination.
Yes…lovely!

Okay, although you have been following my guiding with another person and you have had a ‘pop’, we start at the beginning. So that means becoming aware of actual experience (AE) and learning how to LOOK.

The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ in this moment and just noticing the thought stories about them. So ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now, and that is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

The most important tool for this whole exploration is to be able to tell the difference between actual experience, and the interpretation of actual experience.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

If you have an apple in the kitchen…go grab it or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zee
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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:02 pm

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
No, there is only color, thoughts arising, and shape (and sensation upon retrieving the item)
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No
However, is an apple actually known?
No

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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:08 am

Hello Zee,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
No, there is only color, thoughts arising, and shape (and sensation upon retrieving the item)
Yep :)

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zee
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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:34 am

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.
Parade floats outside window: shape/color
Honking and music from floats: sound
Flame thrower engine on float: shape/color, sound
Happy thoughts: thoughts arising
Baby crying: sound
Thought that baby is hungry: thoughts arising
Eating frozen coke treat..
Cold cup: sensation
Brown solid stuff inside cup: color/shape
Chipping off bits with spoon: sound, sensation, shapes/color
Putting in mouth: sensation
Tasting the sugary chips: tasting
Fireworks: sound, sound, sound.
Getting closer to the fireworks: thoughts arising, sound, sensation (sound wave rebound feeling against body)
Finally a few fireworks visible: thoughts arising, color, shape, sound, sensation

School team about to play on TV: thoughts arising
TV illuminated: images/color, sound
School team is winning: thoughts arising

Dog approaching: image, shape, colors
Is this a friendly dog?: thoughts arising
Dog jumping around excited to be near: sounds, images, shapes, colors, thoughts arising
Feeling relief & relaxation that dog is friendly: sensation, thoughts arising

See mailbox: color, shape
Opening mailbox: sensation, sound
White rectangle inside: color, shape
Is it a bill?: thoughts arising

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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:13 pm

Hey Zee,

Well it seems that you have a handle on actual experience! Great! So let's move onto thoughts.

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zee
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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:38 pm

Where are they coming from and going to?
Unknown, there’s no experience of where they’re coming from or going, just that there are thoughts arising in actual experience
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
Can you predict your next thought?
No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No, but thinking fragments or truncates inexplicably sometimes; no controller who stops thinking
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
It is just more thoughts that say thoughts are similar & sequential or that the thoughts arising are the effect of some sort of cause. For example a joy or tension label in thought content may arise singularly or more strongly in clusters with the suggestion that actual experience is either joyful or tense, when that label is never the actuality of what is happening.

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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:16 am

Hey Zee,
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No, but thinking fragments or truncates inexplicably sometimes; no controller who stops thinking
How is it known that "thinking is fragmented or truncated"?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
It is just more thoughts that say thoughts are similar & sequential or that the thoughts arising are the effect of some sort of cause. For example a joy or tension label in thought content may arise singularly or more strongly in clusters with the suggestion that actual experience is either joyful or tense, when that label is never the actuality of what is happening.
Thought/label either points to actual experience or to thoughts about thought.
If thought says that you saw a spectacular sunrise yesterday…is that sunrise experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story ie ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled ‘spectacular sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (ie now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it That is, that the colour thought refers to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about actual experience which is not the current experience which then equates to just story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.
Is this clear?

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with. Notice how the sports commentator is like the 'inner narrator' labelled 'my thoughts'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zee
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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:48 am

How is it known that "thinking is fragmented or truncated"?
Thought content that says “this is not a complete sentence”
Is this clear?
It depends on where the line is drawn for abstractions. “This is a beautiful sunrise” isn’t a commentary about yesterday but it’s still a learned comment removed from what can be actually said to be happening as direct experience. Colors, shaping, possible sensation (from brightness), and thoughts arising are all that’s going on. If there’s digging into thoughts arising, maybe it is appearing “this is a beautiful sunrise” but that’s content of thought and not truth in the same way color, shapes, sensation from brightness are.
Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
Same as before except just images, colors, and shapes. Hearing still happening but it’s ambient sounds not related to the football game volume.
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
No
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
Not necessary

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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:29 pm

Hello Zee,
How is it known that "thinking is fragmented or truncated"?
Thought content that says “this is not a complete sentence”
So, it is simply an appearing thought that says ‘thinking is fragmented or truncated’. Fragmented and truncated cannot be found in actual experience other than as a thought.
Is this clear?
It depends on where the line is drawn for abstractions. “This is a beautiful sunrise” isn’t a commentary about yesterday but it’s still a learned comment removed from what can be actually said to be happening as direct experience. Colors, shaping, possible sensation (from brightness), and thoughts arising are all that’s going on. If there’s digging into thoughts arising, maybe it is appearing “this is a beautiful sunrise” but that’s content of thought and not truth in the same way color, shapes, sensation from brightness are.
Yes it is…however, thought is still pointing to actual experience as it is appearing in the moment and not to fantasy It’s just a simple way of distinguishing what is appearing to imagination.
Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
Same as before except just images, colors, and shapes. Hearing still happening but it’s ambient sounds not related to the football game volume.
This exercise is about looking at thoughts and how thoughts are like the sports commentator. So when you turned the volume down, what did you notice. I am not interested in the ambient sounds, but what you noticed when you were listening to the commentator and watching the screen and when you turned the volume off and watching the screen.

Did you notice how the muted video left you rather neutral towards the apparent happenings on screen, while the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling. Did you also notice that the muted watching was more about the current action whilst the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened? This is what I want you to notice.

So please redo the exercise and let me know what you noticed and how you felt with volume on and volume off. What happened when volume was off…did your own thoughts go back to talking about the game and what had happened so far….NOTICE.

Okay…so the purpose of the soccer game exercise was for you to see how the sports commentator commented on what was happening in the game. In other words, the sports commentator was ‘breathing’ life into the game…telling a story of what is happening on the field.

Watch the following clip several times and observe closely how thought (the inner narrator) is just a constant stream of commentary that has a story about everything…not matter what it is. You will have to observe this rather closely as some thoughts may be subtle and not as obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo2EKNR ... A&index=13

Can you see how thought does the same with the seeming character and the characters life?

For the next couple of days observe thoughts commentary as it arises. I want you to pretend that everything that your ‘mind is saying,’ is being spoken out loud by a person following you around. So treat “the mind” as an external event; almost as a separate person.
Let me know how you go and what you noticed.


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zee
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Re: See it much of the time but not always

Postby Zee » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:23 pm

Yes it is…however, thought is still pointing to actual experience as it is appearing in the moment and not to fantasy It’s just a simple way of distinguishing what is appearing to imagination.
That’s a good point. With feeling the warmth of the outside air and seeing the sun rising, there could also be thoughts “what a glorious day” or “what a spectacular sunrise” and those thoughts would be timebound but near-realtime pointing to AE. On the other hand, the skies could be grey and coffee just dropped with the thought arising “what a horrible day”.
Both “glorious day” and “horrible day” are content of thought pointing to near-realtime unfolding but stories nonetheless, but “horrible day” maybe is more in the realm of imagination because it denotes resistance of some sort?
This exercise is about looking at thoughts and how thoughts are like the sports commentator. So when you turned the volume down, what did you notice. I am not interested in the ambient sounds, but what you noticed when you were listening to the commentator and watching the screen and when you turned the volume off and watching the screen.
Volume down is the normal preference, so this exercise was a bit of a flipflop maybe from the way it’s usually done—turning volume up first instead of off. The usual situation is there’s an enjoyment of multi-tasking while viewing games without commentary. Turning up the volume was a bit of an intrusion, especially with the publicities/advertisements. In America there are big personalities hired, especially for college basketball, and they are paid to say “shoopty doopty baby!” and a lot of other nonsensical unnecessary stuff while the games are being played. Preference arises for that to be muted. What is noticed with the volume down? Peace and normalcy.
Did you notice how the muted video left you rather neutral towards the apparent happenings on screen
Slightly yes, but there’s great enjoyment with the sound off /down. There’s a preference for a certain team to do well & win but there are joyful feelings arising even for “good plays’ or strong efforts made by the “other” team. Sound off is still very interesting but maybe yes it could be said neutrality, calmness.

,
while the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling.
Not at all. Thoughts arise “please turn this down”. Interestingly, getting together with friends and having the volume up and even having some friends shouting for different teams is enjoyable. But when alone, resistance arises to what is viewed as unnecessary noise or commentary that’s intruding on the peace and the body moves to turn down the volume.
Did you also notice that the muted watching was more about the current action whilst the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened? This is what I want you to notice.
Yes, with sound up lots of commentating about things not currently happening. Muted watching was AE, images/colors/thoughts arising.
What happened when volume was off…did your own thoughts go back to talking about the game and what had happened so far….NOTICE.
Not anywhere near the commentary level with the volume up (maybe 10 or 15% equivalent), but there were lingering thoughts about good plays. “Wow, hopefully they’ll show that dunk one more time!”. Occasionally a thought about “come on, make this one” and humor arising about these thoughts that will have zero impact on the game. The shot is being made or being missed whether thoughts are arising about miss the shot, make the shot, or “where’s dinner”. Doesn’t matter what thoughts or commentary are arising. The game and the playing naturally unfold.
Watch the following clip several times and observe closely how thought (the inner narrator) is just a constant stream of commentary that has a story about everything…not matter what it is. You will have to observe this rather closely as some thoughts may be subtle and not as obvious.

Can you see how thought does the same with the seeming character and the characters life?
Love “La Maison Ensorcelée”! Wasn’t a constant stream of thoughts. Just a few interjections like “wow, this is great special effects from 1908!”. “Scary guy in window”. Yes, very similar to unfoldings day-to-day. Not a lot of thoughts, but labels do come up about experience.
For the next couple of days observe thoughts commentary as it arises. I want you to pretend that everything that your ‘mind is saying,’ is being spoken out loud by a person following you around. So treat “the mind” as an external event; almost as a separate person.
Let me know how you go and what you noticed.
Difficult to do this even though “no me” has only been seen without a doubt for a short while now it seems odd already to posit someone or something that is observing thought or that thought is external to experiencing or what’s happening, but here’s what happened: thoughts vanish every time the idea of observing thoughts arises. Subtle sounds, extreme quiet, low-level rushing sound of air in ears appearing. Then thoughts arise “no thoughts are happening” or “it’s so cool how extremely quiet things get when looking for thought”. Then a smile forms because those commentaries ARE thoughts.


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