Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

[Tiger01]

I've continued the looking and this is where I am. Generally I do the looking or meditation with eyes closed...

There are thoughts or commentary
There are tingling alive sensations
There is attention

Somehow I exist or I am but I am clearly not the first 2 bcz there is experience of them.
And existing seems to be even without the thought "I" or "me"... Confusing
Once attention shifts away from something it feels like i have shifted away from it as well

[adilerten]

I've continued the looking and this is where I am. Generally I do the looking or meditation with eyes closed...

There are thoughts or commentary
There are tingling alive sensations
There is attention

Somehow I exist or I am but I am clearly not the first 2 bcz there is experience of them.
And existing seems to be even without the thought "I" or "me"... Confusing
Once attention shifts away from something it feels like i have shifted away from it as well

you are coming to clear looking step by step and this is what we want to see Tiger.
YEs there are thoughts yes they are sensations
yes there is attention

but does really sensation comes from thought ?

What links them ?

[Tiger01]

but does really sensation comes from thought ?

No. The acknowledgement of existence of sensations happens via thought.

What links them ?

Thoughts about it
I'm not exactly sure what's being pointed here

[Tiger01]

I was looking at what comes up when i refer to tiger(real name)

When eyes open, it automatically points to this image of body and not to any other image/color
With eyes closed, it rolls back to attention that shifts between different sensations and not to any specific sensations

[adilerten]

I was looking at what comes up when i refer to tiger(real name)

When eyes open, it automatically points to this image of body and not to any other image/color
With eyes closed, it rolls back to attention that shifts between different sensations and not to any specific sensations

So thought points to an image of a body and creates a sense of self.
But this self cannot actually be found other than thought.
Eyes open or eyes closed, thought creates an illusion a thought a belief that "i am this body"

What happens if we drop believing what thought says ?
Just say i am not this body / i am not the thoughts.

How does it feel ?

[adilerten]

but does really sensation comes from thought ?

No. The acknowledgement of existence of sensations happens via thought.

What links them ?

Thoughts about it
I'm not exactly sure what's being pointed here

Yes Tiger you are right, there is no actual proof that thoughts creating sensations.
There is sensation, and there is thought.

Thought linkes them to body but only thought can localize them...And another thought links them to another thought saying
"oh i am feeling pressure on my chest when i think about this thought"

Time bound thinking creates this illusion..

Bring up a worrying thought now..
And look at the sensations in the body..
Looks / Seems like sensation is coming from that thought but try see how another thought telling a story about that sensation is coming from a thought..

Are they really linked or they appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

[Tiger01]

What happens if we drop believing what thought says ?
Just say i am not this body / i am not the thoughts.

How does it feel ?

There is noticing of "I" appearing in thoughts. And then there is whatever IS...
It is relaxing sometimes. Sensations are painful (may not be related to any of this)
Whenever I have to observe thoughts, bcz i'm not sure where they happen... I end up projecting it on some part of the head.. Like forehead or back of the head or something. And that part hurts whenever i focus on thoughts..
Right now there is lot of focus on the thoughts and it is hurting... But it's not that painful

Are they really linked or they appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Thought keeps saying otherwise
But AE says it's separate and simultaneous


Adil, I think there is some noticing that is no entity as "I" or "me". At the same time , I am not everything like the spiritual books/people say. Recognition is that "I" exists in thought... and then whatever exists is existing
I feel i will become a vegetable that is subject the whims of whats around me
Without believing in "I", it almost seems impossible for putting in extra effort... (I'm working on something imp and without the idea of "I" it feels like i begin to slack off... Could you describe effort? and enthusiasm?)
Why is there need of effort to uphold healthy patterns like working out or making money or eating healthy or being kind

[adilerten]

What happens if we drop believing what thought says ?
Just say i am not this body / i am not the thoughts.

How does it feel ?

There is noticing of "I" appearing in thoughts. And then there is whatever IS...
It is relaxing sometimes. Sensations are painful (may not be related to any of this)
Whenever I have to observe thoughts, bcz i'm not sure where they happen... I end up projecting it on some part of the head.. Like forehead or back of the head or something. And that part hurts whenever i focus on thoughts..
Right now there is lot of focus on the thoughts and it is hurting... But it's not that painful

Are they really linked or they appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Thought keeps saying otherwise
But AE says it's separate and simultaneous


Adil, I think there is some noticing that is no entity as "I" or "me". At the same time , I am not everything like the spiritual books/people say. Recognition is that "I" exists in thought... and then whatever exists is existing
I feel i will become a vegetable that is subject the whims of whats around me
Without believing in "I", it almost seems impossible for putting in extra effort... (I'm working on something imp and without the idea of "I" it feels like i begin to slack off... Could you describe effort? and enthusiasm?)
Why is there need of effort to uphold healthy patterns like working out or making money or eating healthy or being kind

My dear Tiger,

Thanks for the answers, i see that you see that self is nothing but an illusion of thoughts, but there is focusing on thoughts and taking them seriously which will reduce in time. So relax and go on looking :)
Let's look

I end up projecting it on some part of the head.. Like forehead or back of the head or something. And that part hurts whenever i focus on thoughts..
Right now there is lot of focus on the thoughts and it is hurting... But it's not that painful

As you say thought is projecting and giving some locations Not you!
Are you thoughts ?..
Yes they are creating an illusion like "forehead", "back of a head"
Since there is no actual experience of a body, these will all be recognized as thoughts as you keep on looking.
You are about to see.
We will all be welcoming these thoughts returning back to their home :)

I feel i will become a vegetable that is subject the whims of whats around me
Without believing in "I", it almost seems impossible for putting in extra effort... (I'm working on something imp and without the idea of "I" it feels like i begin to slack off... Could you describe effort? and enthusiasm?)
Why is there need of effort to uphold healthy patterns like working out or making money or eating healthy or being kind

Vegetable ? :))))))))))))) Very good idea...
There is no you to be vegetable or the subjects of anything..
What happens happens. These are just thoughts considering "this will happen, that will happen" and they are linked to the sense of me being afraid of dissolving.
Look what is this fear protecting.. It is protecting something that DOES NOT EXIST! :)
Be thankful to this fear creating concerning thoughts. It is ok for them to be there, but you dont need to take them seriously. They say chop wood carry water before enlightement, chop wood, carry water after enlightement.

Nothing changes but the perceivement.

Life and things goes on existing without anyone orchestrating them, without the idea of effort.

What is the actual experience of effort ?

IT is only a thought label given to some happenings.

Things happen thoughts label them.

Try to see this
Lets say you do
Something you like like painting...and enjoy and lose the track of time..
Your thoughts "enjoyable" for this event,
For someone else it may be boring so they can label this as "hard" and perceivement will be "effort" for them..
They say it is hard when you say it hard...

Just like this example when you say "effort" it is effort which means when thought label things as "effort" they look /seem like effort.

Does cloud make any effort to appear ? Does your hair make any effort to grow ? Does hear make any effort to pump the blood?
What says it is effort ? So what is /where is this effort you are mentioning ? :)

Life can take shape like this or that.. It is only the thoughts saying "this is happening like this, this is happening like that"

So what is money making ? What is eating healthy ? Being kind ?

Aren't these nothing but ideas ? Beliefs ?

What do they have to do with a "you" ?

[Tiger01]

What says it is effort ? So what is /where is this effort you are mentioning ? :)

Life can take shape like this or that.. It is only the thoughts saying "this is happening like this, this is happening like that"

So what is money making ? What is eating healthy ? Being kind ?

Aren't these nothing but ideas ? Beliefs ?

What do they have to do with a "you" ?

Thoughts.

That's true. I've never questioned these beliefs! In my early life, I never thought about being healthy but I was quite healthy!

I'm not sure! They are beliefs! They are conditioning of thoughts similar to conditioning of the body of how i sit of eat or something else.

[adilerten]

What says it is effort ? So what is /where is this effort you are mentioning ? :)

Life can take shape like this or that.. It is only the thoughts saying "this is happening like this, this is happening like that"

So what is money making ? What is eating healthy ? Being kind ?

Aren't these nothing but ideas ? Beliefs ?

What do they have to do with a "you" ?

Thoughts.

That's true. I've never questioned these beliefs! In my early life, I never thought about being healthy but I was quite healthy!

I'm not sure! They are beliefs! They are conditioning of thoughts similar to conditioning of the body of how i sit of eat or something else.

Yes sure a belief is a thought, a conditioning is a rooted thought..

Very well,

There was / is no i - no self anywhere to be found but life keeps on lifing isn't it ?

Even if there is thought about it: "oh i am making effort, oh it is boring, oh i need to eat healthy..etc.." or not life keeps on happening in a way that is suppose to be and thought is talking "bla bla bla" about it.

So what are you responsible of really ?

Are you responsible of anything happening ?

[Tiger01]

There was / is no i - no self anywhere to be found but life keeps on lifing isn't it ?

This "I" or "me" can't be found...
There is body.. There are sensations... There are urges... There is thoughts.. There is becoming serious or funny..
But there is no controlling "I" anywhere... nothing
Just thought overlaps over something that's happening... "I can't think"... "I" can't even observe.. There is this movement of observation.. It's such a blunder of language!

So what are you responsible of really ?
I think many things! But I can't be... Thought happens automatically about what's referred to as me or mine!

No I, Just! But what about the future? It's imagination!

[adilerten]

There was / is no i - no self anywhere to be found but life keeps on lifing isn't it ?
This "I" or "me" can't be found...
There is body.. There are sensations... There are urges... There is thoughts.. There is becoming serious or funny..
But there is no controlling "I" anywhere... nothing
Just thought overlaps over something that's happening... "I can't think"... "I" can't even observe.. There is this movement of observation.. It's such a blunder of language!

Brilliant..
Sure dear Tiger. now you see!

So what are you responsible of really ?
I think many things! But I can't be... Thought happens automatically about what's referred to as me or mine!

No I, Just! But what about the future? It's imagination!

yes..And the imagination is...
as you would know and say..

Another thought :)

[adilerten]

let's make another check point again;
Shall we ?

Keep it simple, what do you see ?
Which is going on and still makes a bigsense ?

1-I AM MY NAME /
2-I AM THIS IMAGE IN THE MIRROR I HAVE A BODU I AM IN THIS BODY OR MIND,
3-THERE IS A CENTER EXPERIENCING LIFE,
4-THERE IS CONTROL, I CAN CONTROL THINGS
5-I HAVE FREE WILL,
6-I CAN DECIDE - CHOOSE THINGS,
7-YESTERDAY, TOMORROW, NOW, PAST FUTURE HISTORY ETC. IS REAL
8-THERE ARE OTHERS AND I AM SEPARATE THEN THEM"
9-THERE IS A FEELING AND IT IS A PROOF OF A SEPERATE I / SELF / ME

[adilerten]

let's make another check point again;
Shall we ?

Keep it simple, what do you see ?
Which is going on and still makes a bigsense ?

1-I AM MY NAME /
2-I AM THIS IMAGE IN THE MIRROR I HAVE A BODU I AM IN THIS BODY OR MIND,
3-THERE IS A CENTER EXPERIENCING LIFE,
4-THERE IS CONTROL, I CAN CONTROL THINGS
5-I HAVE FREE WILL,
6-I CAN DECIDE - CHOOSE THINGS,
7-YESTERDAY, TOMORROW, NOW, PAST FUTURE HISTORY ETC. IS REAL
8-THERE ARE OTHERS AND I AM SEPARATE THEN THEM"
9-THERE IS A FEELING AND IT IS A PROOF OF A SEPERATE I / SELF / ME

Tiger.
Long time no words..

How do you feel ?