End of Story

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:44 am

Sit quietly for 10 mins and look back into the story of your life and find one important decision that you made.
Can be anything.. Choosing your partner, choosing a new house, going to a big party any important decision changed your life..

Then ask this with a great honesty-

Could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
If yes how do you know this ?
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation?
Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?
Can you choose something that is not "right"?

Write what you notice doing this exercise.

Then bring focus to here now.
Look can anything be different than what it already is? How do you know that?
What is that made the choose to be here now?
Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:54 am

Could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
If yes how do you know this ?
Given my thoughts and feelings in the moment I could not make a different decision because thoughts cannot think and their is no thinker.
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
In the moment there was no other way to proceed given all other inputs/circumstances
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation?
Only when analyzing the decision now looking back are alternative outcomes possible, but there was no free will - which is very discomforting
Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?
The situation made me take the only way possible
Can you choose something that is not "right"?
Cannot choose something wrong because there is/was no choice
Write what you notice doing this exercise.

Then bring focus to here now.
Look can anything be different than what it already is? How do you know that?

I don't know if things can be different that what already is. If there is a God it seems he can alter outcomes. Things cannot be different as result of human triggered as human behavior is determined by external precipitants.
What is that made the choose to be here now?
Circumstances made the choice for "me" to be here now
Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?
Thinking I made the choice to be here now does not change what's happening but does change "my" experience of what and why things are happening

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:25 pm

Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation?
Only when analyzing the decision now looking back are alternative outcomes possible,

yes analyzing NOW , which is a thought say so right ?
How could alternative outcomes be any how possible ?
Because a thought says so ?
but there was no free will - which is very discomforting
Yes. From the point of view of the seperate self it is discomforting to know that everyting happens it self without a doer, a center, a driver behind the wheel. But from another perspective it is so comforting and relaxing.
Ideas like Guilt & Shame & Regret quickly dissolves when you this truth.




Look can anything be different than what it already is? How do you know that?

I don't know if things can be different that what already is. If there is a God it seems he can alter outcomes. Things cannot be different as result of human triggered as human behavior is determined by external precipitants.
We have no work here with assumptions. We use only looking to what is..
What is the actual experience of god again ?
Are you a human ? Are you someone ? LOOK!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:30 pm

But mainly you looked good to this idea of free will and i see that you saw that there is absolutely no control and no free will!
Very good.


Now holding this perspective, take a good look and please can you tell me what are you responsible from ?
Are you responsible from anything you did/did not do ?
IS there anyone who is responsible of anything ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:23 am

Adil, thank you for your assistance thus far!
Are you responsible from anything you did/did not do ?
IS there anyone who is responsible of anything ?
No, "I" am not responsible for anything I did or did not do as choice is a thought(s) No one is responsible for anything when looking, however there is internal sensations and reaction to this idea because it threatens "I"
yes analyzing NOW , which is a thought say so right ?
How could alternative outcomes be any how possible ?
Because a thought says so ?
Yes alternative outcomes are possible because thought says so
What is the actual experience of god again ?
Are you a human ? Are you someone ? LOOK!
I do not have any actual experience of God -- returning to looking only. Can things be different than what already is?? - don't know. Not sure what to look at to make this determination. Intellectually I can see that there is only "what is" yet conditioning of living in the world ingrained perception that humans choices and intervene which then alters the future. Anxious sensations happen contemplating how to be in the world without agency.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:27 pm

Adil, thank you for your assistance thus far!
Thank you Lisa, It is my pleasure :)

Are you responsible from anything you did/did not do ?
IS there anyone who is responsible of anything ?

No, "I" am not responsible for anything I did or did not do as choice is a thought(s) No one is responsible for anything when looking, however there is internal sensations and reaction to this idea because it threatens "I"

Where is this "I" to be threatened ? Can you locate it ?
Look closer to these "internal reactions".. Where in the body it is felt ?
Then take a closer look, does this sensation really say something or a there is a thought story about a sensation?
What is that sensation without a thought! LOOK!
Recall this "internal sensation" and try to ignore the thought when it is felt and LOOK closer, does it really mean anything or it is just a sensation ?


yes analyzing NOW , which is a thought say so right ?
How could alternative outcomes be any how possible ?
Because a thought says so ?

Yes alternative outcomes are possible because thought says so

Are they REALLY possible or is it just a thought story ?


What is the actual experience of god again ?
Are you a human ? Are you someone ? LOOK!

I do not have any actual experience of God -- returning to looking only.
Yes.
What is it more than a belief (simply thought)


Anxious sensations happen contemplating how to be in the world without agency.
There was never any kind of agency but life was going on right ? :)

What is an agency but a mental construct. A concept. A thought?
As i asked above can you please look into these "anxious labelled sensations closer and tell me more ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:50 am

Adil,

I cannot think of any further questions at this time but I will have more time to contemplate this weekend.
Please help me look at free will now. Thanks.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:25 pm

ok dear lisa
take your time :)

but don't forget to answer my questions above before we move on..

sending love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:45 am

Adil,
Where is this "I" to be threatened ? Can you locate it ?
This "I" cannot be located as it is not an entity but rather a concept/thought. It cannot be located - anxious sensation and confusion/disequilibrium sensations happen and thought that cannot navigate life without the concept of self as it has been such a means of making sense of the world. If there is no "I" and all the information being received by senses then interpreted and an illusion. The mind begins racing and anxiety sensations prevail when don't know what to rely on for factual information and encouraged not to THINK and create understanding out of the sensory information coming about via awareness.
Look closer to these "internal reactions".. Where in the body it is felt ?
Mainly in my chest, my breath becomes shallow and their is pressure in my chest region. Frantic, unsettled.
Then take a closer look, does this sensation really say something or a there is a thought story about a sensation
There are many thought stories and tremendous thinking happening in effort to regain equilibrium and foundation for which to make sense of the world. Again every way in which sense has been made of the world is proving to be wrong so don't know how to proceed.
What is that sensation without a thought! LOOK!
Energy moving
Recall this "internal sensation" and try to ignore the thought when it is felt and LOOK closer, does it really mean anything or it is just a sensation ?

No the internal sensations do not mean anything but the mind automatically gives it meaning. It frustrates and annoys me that it is impossible to prevent meaning making to see what it is real.
What is an agency but a mental construct. A concept. A thought?
"Agency" is a mental contrast but I do not know how to let go of behaving and believing that agency exists. The mind resists the inability to alter what is happening. The mind wants to be able to change "what is" It doesn't sit right that people live believing they are affecting the world around them when in reality the world is happening to them (people are just subjects being acted upon and the behavioral response happens). It is difficult to accept that "I" would get up and participate "meaningfully" in life without trying to alter circumstances. Purpose of life seems to evaporate when there is only awareness happening. Difficult to trust that the body and mind would continue with daily tasks upon seeing/realizing that circumstances evolve without thinking or "I" being assigned as the causal agent behind the activities.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:48 pm

Let's look Lisa,
This "I" cannot be located as it is not an entity but rather a concept/thought. It cannot be located - anxious sensation and confusion/disequilibrium sensations happen and thought that cannot navigate life without the concept of self as it has been such a means of making sense of the world. If there is no "I" and all the information being received by senses then interpreted and an illusion. The mind begins racing and anxiety sensations prevail when don't know what to rely on for factual information and encouraged not to THINK and create understanding out of the sensory information coming about via awareness.

Don't try to understand / define Lisa.
Just simply look.
As you said it cannot be located, because it simply does not exist!

Then take a closer look, does this sensation really say something or a there is a thought story about a sensation

There are many thought stories and tremendous thinking happening in effort to regain equilibrium and foundation for which to make sense of the world. Again every way in which sense has been made of the world is proving to be wrong so don't know how to proceed.
So what is your answer here ? Does it say something or there is a sensation and the thought about it ?

What is that sensation without a thought! LOOK!
Energy moving
Recall this "internal sensation" and try to ignore the thought when it is felt and LOOK closer, does it really mean anything or it is just a sensation
No the internal sensations do not mean anything but the mind automatically gives it meaning. It frustrates and annoys me that it is impossible to prevent meaning making to see what it is real.
Yes it is simply an energy/vibration tells nothing. You can only say "it is there" without thought labeling.

What is wrong with making a meaning out of it ? Why cannot you let them be there ? What is wrong with thoughts
saying this and that?

blabla bla... Cat will meow, dog will bark, bird will fly thought will talk.
Let it be.

What is an agency but a mental construct. A concept. A thought?
"Agency" is a mental contrast but I do not know how to let go of behaving and believing that agency exists. The mind resists the inability to alter what is happening. The mind wants to be able to change "what is" It doesn't sit right that people live believing they are affecting the world around them when in reality the world is happening to them (people are just subjects being acted upon and the behavioral response happens). It is difficult to accept that "I" would get up and participate "meaningfully" in life without trying to alter circumstances. Purpose of life seems to evaporate when there is only awareness happening. Difficult to trust that the body and mind would continue with daily tasks upon seeing/realizing that circumstances evolve without thinking or "I" being assigned as the causal agent behind the activities.
Yes agency is a mental construct! PERIOD!
Difficult to trust that the body and mind would continue with daily tasks upon seeing/realizing that circumstances evolve without thinking or "I" being assigned as the causal agent behind the activities.
This is just a thought depending on the belief that there is an "I"
There has never been a self but things were happening.
There has never been a ‘you’, even if it seems that way. What appears in the dream appears, even the idea of a ‘you’ paying the bills, sleeping, waking, thinking, feeling..
Why would this change?
Before enlightement chop wood carry water after enlightement chop wood carry water.
Expectations are future bound, as if there is someone/something waiting for something to be a particular way - as if there is something missing in life right now. There is only ever now. Expectations compare what is happening now to an imagined future happening, and if the current happening does not match the imagined, this is then labelled as ‘liberated’ or ‘not liberated and can blindside the fact that the realisation that there is no separate self has happened.

Clear ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:11 am

Adil, Thank you for being stern and helping me stick to looking instead of trying to understand. My mind bent on thinking.
So what is your answer here ? Does it say something or there is a sensation and the thought about it ?
There is a sensation and a thought about it.
What is wrong with making a meaning out of it ? Why cannot you let them be there ? What is wrong with thoughts
saying this and that?
From our conversation thus far, I have gotten the impression that thinking about a thought and meaning making are obstacles to looking.
This is just a thought depending on the belief that there is an "I"
There has never been a self but things were happening.
There has never been a ‘you’, even if it seems that way. What appears in the dream appears, even the idea of a ‘you’ paying the bills, sleeping, waking, thinking, feeling..
Why would this change?
Will the sensation of "I" and the belief in "I" ever go away OR does it continue even after seeing there is no "I"?
There is only ever now. Expectations compare what is happening now to an imagined future happening, and if the current happening does not match the imagined, this is then labelled as ‘liberated’ or ‘not liberated and can blindside the fact that the realisation that there is no separate self has happened.
I can't see this. Can you help me see that there is only now.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:47 pm

Adil, Thank you for being stern and helping me stick to looking instead of trying to understand. My mind bent on thinking.
Tha's ok. It's my pleasure. This will become automatic soon. You will only trust in looking ;)

So what is your answer here ? Does it say something or there is a sensation and the thought about it ?
There is a sensation and a thought about it. [/quote]

Excellent. Sure.
Will the sensation of "I" and the belief in "I" ever go away OR does it continue even after seeing there is no "I"?
Is it an actual sensation ? Look and tell me ? IF it is an actual sensation where in the body resides can you show me ?
Where is it when you don't think about it!
? Feeling / seeming is not a proof of something exists. Look! Can you find ? Can you spot that "i" for me ? Can you touch/smell/see ?


There is only ever now. Expectations compare what is happening now to an imagined future happening, and if the current happening does not match the imagined, this is then labelled as ‘liberated’ or ‘not liberated and can blindside the fact that the realisation that there is no separate self has happened.

I can't see this. Can you help me see that there is only now.
Sure.
Have you ever actually experienced the past ?
I am not asking have you had a thought in the present about an apparent past..
Have you ever actually experienced that past to which your thought refers ?
Is the "now" moving along a line of time ? Does it have a speed ?
Does it move from a point to b ?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
LOOK!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:21 am

Adil,
Is it an actual sensation ? Look and tell me ? IF it is an actual sensation where in the body resides can you show me ?
Where is it when you don't think about it! Feeling / seeming is not a proof of something exists. Look! Can you find ? Can you spot that "i" for me ? Can you touch/smell/see ?
There are energy sensation in my head, stomach, feet, and hands but they are sensations NOT "I." The I that is held onto is a concept. There is no "I" to touch, smell, or see.
Have you ever actually experienced the past ?
NO
I am not asking have you had a thought in the present about an apparent past..
Have you ever actually experienced that past to which your thought refers ?
NO
Is the "now" moving along a line of time ? Does it have a speed ?
Now does not move along a timeline unless our mind consults memories or imagination.
Does it move from a point to b ?
no
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Yes, when there is a person talking to me their actions and words form coherent movement and speech where one moment gives way to the next.
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

There is no direct experience of one moment following another. My mind cannot shift and train itself to view things in the now thereby eliminating time. Because my mind does not know how to live in the now and operate in the world without creating a sense of past and future - all meaning collapses?! Apparently, I cannot exist without time and "I" am terrified of dying.

IF we eliminate thinking so that we do not have memories of what the mind sensed then there is no direct experience of one event following another.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:32 am

Thank you for your answers Lisa,
Good looking..


quote]Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Yes, when there is a person talking to me their actions and words form coherent movement and speech where one moment gives way to the next.[/quote]

When is this memory/thought appear ?

My mind cannot shift and train itself to view things in the now thereby eliminating time. Because my mind does not know how to live in the now and operate in the world without creating a sense of past and future - all meaning collapses?! Apparently, I cannot exist without time and "I" am terrified of dying.
No matter whatever your thoughts are there is no other way of appearing. All appears in the now. There is not single experience happening in an imaginary past or future.

A thought arises and collates all these different experiences (remembers them) and in order to house them all
imagines a linear of time in which can place all these objects and with that creates the idea of time. But actually
experience does not appear in linear time. All experience appears now.

You will know the truth by looking but thought can keep on appearing. When belief is seen through, let thoughts appear and say "oh my mind does not know how to live in the now and operate in the world without creating a sense of past and future - all meaning collapses?! " These are just thoughts.

You just look!

There is no time but self aware experience is here and now. "YOU" don't exist.
There is no mind. It is a label given to thoughts.

What is the actual experience of a death ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:36 am

There is a belief that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’? WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future. What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear? ,What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought? How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future. What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future? If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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