End of Story

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:35 pm

We will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often here!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.
The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –
It is the raw experience of direct experiences colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. not the content of thought.
The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.
Also by staying in the looking/direct experience your mind will be trained to see what is here and now instead of going to thinking..
Clear ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:40 pm

If all clear can you please tell me where does the finger go when you say "I" - "Me" - "Lisa" ?
Take a good direct look and tell me
wherever you are pointing (chest-head probably) is there an "I" there ? Or only a chest ? Or only a head ?
Look like you are looking for your keys in your pocket.. What do you do to look for your keys in your pocket ?
You don't think right ?
Just use your direct experiences..
Can you find any "I" in the chest or head ?
What can you find ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:39 am

Adil,

I do not have any experience of death. My thinking assumed that it would involve "no awareness." I also assumed that consciousness dies when the body/mind dies.

I am eager to improve my skills of LOOKING so I can realize no separate self.

Why I point the finger when saying "Lisa" and "I" I point "my" body. There is only a chest there. There is no "I" in the chest.

I think my mind and mental activity is trying to determine what it will be like to live without a sense of self rather than LOOKING.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:59 am

Hey Lisa
Let's look
I do not have any experience of death.
Sure..What is the actual experience of a "death" ?
Where is it here and now ?
Can you see/hear/touch/Smell/Taste a death or you can only.... ?


My thinking assumed that it would involve "no awareness." I also assumed that consciousness dies when the body/mind dies.
Please stop to produce theories and assuming :)
Here we are only interested in things which are here & now.. Or you want to go on believing stories and fairy tales ?
So please stop assuming and focus what is asked and answered here okay ?



I am eager to improve my skills of LOOKING so I can realize no separate self.


You will be.
Don't hurry we are still at the beginning of your journey :)

Why I point the finger when saying "Lisa" and "I" I point "my" body. There is only a chest there. There is no "I" in the chest.
Yes very good looking.. There is only a chest there.
Where is this "i" when you don't think about it ?

I think my mind and mental activity is trying to determine what it will be like to live without a sense of self rather than LOOKING.
Expectations are future bound, as if there is someone/something waiting for something to be a particular way. There is only ever now. I would advise you not to imagine the result of inquiry, or try to expect a future change in your behaviour or character. Rather, look at what is going on presently, and feel what is felt without thinking about them.

ok ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:09 am

after you answer my previous questions let's go on..

Image

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying,
"I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure?
Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?


Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known color labelled ‘apple’ is known sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:44 pm

The apple is not known.....only color and thought about an "apple"

Death may only be a product of thinking as I have no experience of death.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:53 pm

The apple is not known.....only color and thought about an "apple"

Death may only be a product of thinking as I have no experience of death.
Brilliant looking Lisa.
Sure it is.
There is no such thing called "death"
It is sure a concept / ide / thought..

Let's go on then..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:04 pm

as you see Lisa,
There are thoughts thoughts thoughts..

But how this thoughts work ? Do we have any control on them ? Or a sense/feeling a control...
Let's look closer..

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Really where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:03 am

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Wow, this was an experience that made me dizzy. The thoughts happen and then "I" gets attached to the thinking to make it seems as if "I" exist and create the thoughts or exist as a thinker. The dizziness experienced likely evolved from mind flipping between thoughts happening and "I" assuming ownership of the thoughts. The mind wants so much to be in control. While looking anxiety happened as soon as the momentary sense of ownership vanished. Thoughts happen without "me." There is still a sense that the contents of the thoughts are produced by a thinker despite seeing that the thinking itself happens.


It seemed as if "I" chose some of the thought topics. I could not predict the next thought or make thought happen. Obviously thoughts are seen and then acted upon by the mind and body - but it is the mind and body happening not "I." It appears that thought takes content from previous thought and our mind attaches the concept of "I" to thinking.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:08 pm

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Wow, this was an experience that made me dizzy. The thoughts happen and then "I" gets attached to the thinking to make it seems as if "I" exist and create the thoughts or exist as a thinker. The dizziness experienced likely evolved from mind flipping between thoughts happening and "I" assuming ownership of the thoughts. The mind wants so much to be in control. While looking anxiety happened as soon as the momentary sense of ownership vanished. Thoughts happen without "me." There is still a sense that the contents of the thoughts are produced by a thinker despite seeing that the thinking itself happens.


It seemed as if "I" chose some of the thought topics. I could not predict the next thought or make thought happen. Obviously thoughts are seen and then acted upon by the mind and body - but it is the mind and body happening not "I." It appears that thought takes content from previous thought and our mind attaches the concept of "I" to thinking.
Thanks for the answers and comments Lisa,
This is a completely new way perceiving what is really happening, so dizyness, anxiety can be happening.
That's ok.
It seemed as if "I" chose some of the thought topics.
There is no chooser. You can understand this by answering this:

Let's say there is a sense of choosing the thought about something..LEt's say "thought of mom"
Why not "father" but mom ? Why not "dentist" but mom ?
How is the choosing made ? Did you eleminate "mom thought" from billion topics or simply it was chosen ?


But can you please answer all blue questions in the previous exercise one by one, and this question above for us to proceed.
Thank you :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:54 am

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Really where are they coming from and going to?
Thought seems to just appear - not coming from or going to
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
I do not do anything to make a thought appear, yet focusing on different objects in the environment changed thought content
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
Can you predict your next thought? No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? No
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?
There is no logical sequence rather thought takes content from previous thought
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Just more thoughts
There is no chooser. You can understand this by answering this:

Let's say there is a sense of choosing the thought about something..LEt's say "thought of mom"
Why not "father" but mom ? Why not "dentist" but mom ?
How is the choosing made ? Did you eleminate "mom thought" from billion topics or simply it was chosen
When altering the objects looked at or seen with the eye in the world different thought content happens

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Really where are they coming from and going to?
Thought seems to just appear - not coming from or going to
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
I do not do anything to make a thought appear, yet focusing on different objects in the environment changed thought content
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
Can you predict your next thought? No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? No
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?
There is no logical sequence rather thought takes content from previous thought
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Just more thoughts
There is no chooser. You can understand this by answering this:

Let's say there is a sense of choosing the thought about something..LEt's say "thought of mom"
Why not "father" but mom ? Why not "dentist" but mom ?
How is the choosing made ? Did you eleminate "mom thought" from billion topics or simply it was chosen
When altering the objects looked at or seen with the eye in the world different thought content happens

Very good looking Lisa.
Thank you for your focused attention..
Let's look more.
:)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:21 pm

let's look more to this automatic nature of thoughts attention and events..

Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focusses on whatever happens in the moment. A sound happens, attention moves there it self without any thinking or a will..
An action happens head turns automaticly..
A body sensation happens (let's say itching) finger goes there without any thought / me / self!

Now it might focus on thought. You might even "get lost in thought"...

Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?
Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound?
Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..?


Now look at looking..Look carefully!

when you open eyes and see colours and shapes,

do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about touching things, is the sensation there by itself or you switch it on and off?
taste, smell, are you in charge of that or it's simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage other bodily functions or not?


what are you in charge of really ?
what can you turn on and off at will?

are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
are you really in charge of being, or it's on by default, no matter what?


Simply sit for 10min or so and observe.
Then write.

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:47 am

Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?

Thoughts are happening. I did not decide to get lost in thought.
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?

Thought noticed that it was not about the present, then present moment experiencing happened
Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound?
This is very difficult, when looking my attention moves; however, other thought has me change my attention not "I."
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
colors and shapes appear - light is imprinted on my cornea - however I do not have awareness of the colors until I attend and begin to process via thought the sense data

I cannot say that upon opening my eyes seeing happens. When lost in thought, registration of objects/environment does ot happen. The sense data is there but not being attended to or thought about.
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
sound happens, something prompts attending to the sound and then hearing happens
how about touching things, is the sensation there by itself or you switch it on and off?
sensation is there, the mind may or may not attend to it for interpretation
taste, smell, are you in charge of that or it's simply there?
taste and smell happen, the mind may or may not attend to it for interpretation
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage other bodily functions or not?
I do not move the blood or the heart beat, bodily functions happen
what are you in charge of really ?

All there is is awareness of happening. It's super uncomfortable to realize (not yet totally experience) no ability to direct/intervene with experience. "I" does not exist and never did exist. Lots of sensations happening, confusion happening without a reference.
what can you turn on and off at will?
Nothing. My mind really struggling with concept of actions/happenings without ownership
a
re you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
No. thinking, sensing, and experiencing is happening....there is awareness of thinking, sensing, and experiencing
are you really in charge of being, or it's on by default, no matter what?
how does being and awareness continue without and "I" --- I keep thinking to try and make sense of it knowing I must look instead..HELP

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:45 pm

Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?

Thoughts are happening. I did not decide to get lost in thought.
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?

Thought noticed that it was not about the present, then present moment experiencing happened
Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound?
This is very difficult, when looking my attention moves; however, other thought has me change my attention not "I."
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
colors and shapes appear - light is imprinted on my cornea - however I do not have awareness of the colors until I attend and begin to process via thought the sense data

I cannot say that upon opening my eyes seeing happens. When lost in thought, registration of objects/environment does ot happen. The sense data is there but not being attended to or thought about.
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
sound happens, something prompts attending to the sound and then hearing happens
how about touching things, is the sensation there by itself or you switch it on and off?
sensation is there, the mind may or may not attend to it for interpretation
taste, smell, are you in charge of that or it's simply there?
taste and smell happen, the mind may or may not attend to it for interpretation
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage other bodily functions or not?
I do not move the blood or the heart beat, bodily functions happen
what are you in charge of really ?

All there is is awareness of happening. It's super uncomfortable to realize (not yet totally experience) no ability to direct/intervene with experience. "I" does not exist and never did exist. Lots of sensations happening, confusion happening without a reference.
what can you turn on and off at will?
Nothing. My mind really struggling with concept of actions/happenings without ownership
a
re you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
No. thinking, sensing, and experiencing is happening....there is awareness of thinking, sensing, and experiencing
are you really in charge of being, or it's on by default, no matter what?
how does being and awareness continue without and "I" --- I keep thinking to try and make sense of it knowing I must look instead..HELP

Very good looking Lisa.
Let's look at the unclear fields.

what can you turn on and off at will?
Nothing. My mind really struggling with concept of actions/happenings without ownership

First of all there is nothing called "mind"
It is the name given to thoughts labelling what is happening.
So struggling thoughts are also there which is normal.
It is a new pure way of perceiving what is..

Does your thoughts about "what is" change what is happening.
Now drop the thoughts that you are doing something..Does the movement stop ?

how does being and awareness continue without and "I" --- I keep thinking to try and make sense of it knowing I must look instead..HELP

What is "I" nothing but language ?
What is it more than a thought a feeling ?
There was never a self but being aware was always happening.

Notice how thoughts appear in awareness, and don’t pay so much attention to what they say. Just notice it as a baffling noise, as thoughts labelling whatever experience is noticed. Just never-ending labelling.

Notice that “I” is not anything else but just a passing thought. Just a word. See that presence/being is impersonal, but thoughts make it appear otherwise. Now check if this is true:

Is there a “you” thinking or just thoughts flowing by themselves without a thinker?
“I” is a thought. Thought cannot think. It’s just an expression of processes going on..

Notice NOW that there is no noticer, but noticing happening, that there is no focuser, but focusing happening. That there is no one to see, but seeing is happening all by itself, effortlessly.

Let me know what you find.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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