End of Story

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Lankylisa
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End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:19 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It is my understanding that suffering is a result of believing "I" exist. The concept of 'self' that has developed makes us believe that we are separate from the world and thereby vulnerable. Each person has a consciousness but not a 'self.' The self is a thought or concept that the mind holds onto believing death is guaranteed otherwise.

What are you looking for at LU?
I wish to be liberated from sense of self. I want to be content in awareness and reality rather than living a thought/imagined life. I hope to receive questions on which to meditate and practical actions I can take move in the direction of surrender. I have read a handful of books on Buddhism and have listened to numerous podcasts by Guy Finley. My mind loves to think and does not yet know how to be in the moment, aware with minimal mental analysis and judgement. "I" readily identify with my thoughts rather than observe them and allow them to pass -- in other words I take them to be true. It also may be important to know that for years my faith in Jesus has been my spiritual practice so there is some internal conflict about pursuing this path. The dissolution of self rings true so intuition tells me Christianity and awakening may be compatible.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Means of recognizing mental stories and their purpose to distract me from reality. Means of letting go of the concepts and assumptions that make up 'self." Advise on how to live in the world when it is based on believing in past and future and inadvertently discourages living in the moment.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Reading books online, periodic insight meditation

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:22 am

Hello Lankylisa!
My name is Adil and i am guide here,
We can start the journey if it is okay for you.
Send me a message when you are ready!
Sending much love
Adil.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:41 am

Hi Adil! My apologies that I did not have the opportunity to write back until just now. I am super excited to get started in seeing there is no real 'self.' Based on the limited information I provided where should I start?
Lisa

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:02 pm

Ok. Welcome back,
How would you like me to call you ?
Lisa ?

Before we start i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience.

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

All ok?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:43 pm

Also I would like to tell you some important points about your statement
It also may be important to know that for years my faith in Jesus has been my spiritual practice so there is some internal conflict about pursuing this path. The dissolution of self rings true so intuition tells me Christianity and awakening may be compatible."
It is clear that for this exploration you need to put Christian beliefs aside..
Not only religious beliefs, this exploration is all about peeling layers of all kinds of beliefs..
When beliefs are seen through , the only thing remains is again what people calls "consciousness, awareness, bliss, love, one mind, brahman, god.."
And if you are willing to do that, if you feel ready and brave enough to question all thought material let me know
and let's start!

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:36 am

Adil, you can call me Lisa. I am so excited to embark on this spiritual journey. I agree not to read or study other religious materials during our interaction. I can set aside my Christian beliefs and begin to peel back the layers. I'm ready! I also agree to respond in all honesty rather than give the "right" or "good student" answer.
Hope to hear from you soon. Lisa Eley

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:13 pm

Adil, you can call me Lisa. I am so excited to embark on this spiritual journey. I agree not to read or study other religious materials during our interaction. I can set aside my Christian beliefs and begin to peel back the layers. I'm ready! I also agree to respond in all honesty rather than give the "right" or "good student" answer.
Hope to hear from you soon. Lisa Eley
Fantastic Lisa.
Let's start..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:19 pm

First of all i would like to ask 2 things..

1- What is your expectations ? What is missing ? What would you like to happen ?

2-What comes when i tell you "You don't exist! Any form, any shape..Neither inside a body, nor outside, a you that has been born and also a you that is going to die is just a story!"


Please write what comes in detail.

Thank you
Sending much love
Adil
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:44 am

I would like to be able to go through life without emotional ups and downs where I react to circumstances. I am seeking contentment instead of a constant effort to attain fulfillment.....the ability to be in the moment rather than focusing on the next task that must get done. I often think to myself "as soon as it (fill in the blank). I will be happy." I have missed parts of my life because I take myself and life too seriously. I am hopeful to attain a different perspective..another way of interpreting life.

2. I experience anxiousness when told "You don't exist." I have a fondness for my thinking and who I have come to identify as myself because it provides me some security and means of making sense of the world without which it is difficult to imagine being able to operate. At the same time there is something comforting about not existing as I would not have to live up to expectations. I recognize that everything I can know and understand about the world and "myself" is the product of interpretation. I do not directly experience the world. My consciousness creates a seperation between "me" and the world.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:02 pm

Thank you for your honest answers Lisa
Let's look,
I would like to be able to go through life without emotional ups and downs where I react to circumstances. I am seeking contentment instead of a constant effort to attain fulfillment.....the ability to be in the moment rather than focusing on the next task that must get done. I often think to myself "as soon as it (fill in the blank). I will be happy." I have missed parts of my life because I take myself and life too seriously. I am hopeful to attain a different perspective..another way of interpreting life.
First of all i would like to remind you what Lu is not promising.
This is not a self improvement program.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not about staying in the moment, living in the now etc.

Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self."
That's all. Once you see this and understand it with your whole being,
the "fog" might dissolve right away, but most of the time, not all of them
disappear in an instant. The difference, however, is that
with the understanding, for the first time you can deal with that
"dust" in an authentic way. As you continue, no much "noise" will bother any more.
Emotions and feelings pop out, then disappear, and then pop out ... thats it.

So i strongly advice you to drop all kinds of expectations just focus on our work if you would like to go on :)

2.
I experience anxiousness when told "You don't exist." I have a fondness for my thinking and who I have come to identify as myself because it provides me some security and means of making sense of the world without which it is difficult to imagine being able to operate. At the same time there is something comforting about not existing as I would not have to live up to expectations. I recognize that everything I can know and understand about the world and "myself" is the product of interpretation. I do not directly experience the world. My consciousness creates a seperation between "me" and the world.
I understand anxiousness but it is protecting something that does not exist.
The sense of being is not going to vanish. Nothing is going to change. It already is as it is. What drops is the belief that “I” is the orchestrator. And nothing drops it. It just falls away when the truth is seen.
In seeing there are the seen, the seer and the seeing—as one. There are no separate parts.
In hearing—the hearer, the heard and the hearing—as one. There are no separate parts.
In orchestration... What is there?
The Universe is working not through, but as. It’s expressing itself in different forms, not through different forms.

What do you see there?


Is there a thinker ?
IS there a do-er ?
IS there a chooser ?
IS there a observer ?
IS there anything experienced that is separate from the experience ?
IS there a experiencer ?
IS there someone who is being aware ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm

Lisa ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 am

Adil,

I apologize that I am unable to respond to you quicker. The time difference between Japan and the states makes it difficult in conjunction with the holiday season.
So i strongly advice you to drop all kinds of expectations just focus on our work if you would like to go on :)
"I" am trying to be without expectation in each situation I find myself in rather than predict before hand ensuring that I will not experience or discover something new.
Is there a thinker ?
IS there a do-er ?
IS there a chooser ?
IS there a observer ?
IS there anything experienced that is separate from the experience ?
IS there a experiencer ?
IS there someone who is being aware ?

There are moments where I experience that my thoughts and actions just happen, no thinker, no doer. However, this sensation and realization is short-lived. Its' a recognition I am unable to hold onto. Viewing myself as separate from object seems the go-to action of the mind. At times I recognize that seeing, seer, and seen arise simultaneously as one cannot exist without the other. My strongest sense of "I" comes from awareness. It seems there must be an "I" to experience awareness. Does not awareness require a thinker?

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:59 pm

Hello Lisa
I apologize that I am unable to respond to you quicker. The time difference between Japan and the states makes it difficult in conjunction with the holiday season.


It's ok Lisa no need for apologies :)
Just try to focus everyday that's all i ask from you for our movement of the process

Let's look
It seems there must be an "I" to experience awareness. Does not awareness require a thinker?
Look at breathing. You can see that breathing is happening. You can see that labelling the movement.

'I am breathing' does not change the movement. Breathing is happening no matter if I label is used or not.
Same with everything else- sitting, reading, scratching an itch, walking, talking, witnessing, observing, thinking...

is there I that is doing all this? Is there a breather, thinker, witness, walker, talker...?
Do you become a breather if the breath is conscious? Do you become a walker, a sitter?
Is there any need of a "thinker" for thinking to happen ?

IF yes can you locate this "thinker" ?

Does awareness require anything to be aware ?



here is a great article from lovely Ilona.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html


After answering my questions please read it and do the exerices there and report me what comes..

Thank you
Sending love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lankylisa
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Re: End of Story

Postby Lankylisa » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:56 am

Adil,

There is no thinker or breather ...thinking and breathing happens. How is it breathing and and thinking is readily attributed to a thinker and a breather? why does it seem like there is a subject behind things happening? How do we come to believe in illusion to such an extent that we are often blind to reality? It is so difficult to see through and the seeing is impermanent.

I completed the exercise within the article that you gave me the link to. I see that we use labels to point to our experiences but the labels are not reality they only point to reality so we are not directly seeing. The struggle to see no "I" is linked to labels becuase we cannot see beyond the thinking and labels that seems to occur simultanously at moment of seeing/awareness. Oneness or the dissolving of self seperate from the world seems just beyond my grasp. I want desperately to eradicate "inside" and "outside." How can the world exist if I do not exist? Is it that I exist but not as a fixed entitity but rahter ever changing creation?


I noticed that labels change experience ... becuase a label is based on our past (thinking). As soon as we label we remove ourself from reality. There was a difference between journaling experience using "I" versus without "I." When using "I" there were bodily contractions as there is always and underlying judgement that happens in order to keep "I" alive. It appears very difficult to unite and fully see life with "I" in the way hence my eagerness to see through this "I" (just another thought/concept) yet "I" will not accept defeat. It seems that if "I" vanishes awareness or conciousness dies.


Looking forward to the next step.

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adilerten
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Re: End of Story

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:29 pm

There is no thinker or breather ...thinking and breathing happens.
Yes. Very good looking.
why does it seem like there is a subject behind things happening? How do we come to believe in illusion to such an extent that we are often blind to reality? It is so difficult to see through and the seeing is impermanent.

You will see directly the patterns as an answer to your "how"s if you stay with the direct experience.
But the question "why" has no answer. It is only more thoughts.
And it is not difficult to see through.."Difficult" is just a label. Result of an expectation. Drop your expectations of what and how will happen, and only focus our journey please ;)
I want desperately to eradicate "inside" and "outside." How can the world exist if I do not exist? Is it that I exist but not as a fixed entitity but rahter ever changing creation?
Is it possible to eradicate something that not exist ?
There is no "I" existing in anyform. Never existed.
There are only feelings about it, as a subtle thought.


There was a difference between journaling experience using "I" versus without "I." When using "I" there were bodily contractions as there is always and underlying judgement that happens in order to keep "I" alive.

Yes without using the word "I" experience feels flowing. Good looking.
But there is nothing there to keep anything alive. Please drop all theories and go on looking to your direct experience.
It appears very difficult to unite and fully see life with "I" in the way hence my eagerness to see through this "I" (just another thought/concept) yet "I" will not accept defeat. It seems that if "I" vanishes awareness or conciousness dies.
As i said nothing is difficult or easy. It is only what is..
Drop the idea now that "you" are doing something to see something. Your answers to questions will lead you to somewhere if you stop making theories out of what's happening.
Also how can concoisness die ?
What is the actual experience of death ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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