phi, let's talk

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Garsius Tyla
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phi, let's talk

Postby Garsius Tyla » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:55 pm

Can you even imagine, there is no you? You do not exist? At all?

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phi
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby phi » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:27 pm

Hi Garsius Tyla! Thank you for inviting me to a one-on-one. I have to tell you something upfront: I know I'm a "green," but I actually had a PM conversation with a "red" on here yesterday, and I'm pretty sure in the end we agreed that we both see non-self the same way.

That said, to answer your question directly, yes I can imagine there is no me, because ultimately there isn't. It's weird to try to put it into words, which is the main reason I'm on this site, reading, and I admire what you guys do here, trying to literally enlighten beings by telling them exactly where to look.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:26 am

That is awesome. So lets do some clarification to make sure, ok?

Can you look and describe in DETAILS -

What is that "I" we all talking about?
How illusion of "I" happens?

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phi
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby phi » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:32 am

That is awesome. So lets do some clarification to make sure, ok?

Can you look and describe in DETAILS -

What is that "I" we all talking about?
How illusion of "I" happens?
Basically we notice that there is seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, and thinking. Then we make the incorrect assumption that whenever there is seeing, there must exist someone who sees; whenever there is thinking, someone must think; ... Because we use the words, "I am seeing," or "I am thinking," we infer the existence of "I" because it is "obviously" the one who is seeing and the one who is thinking. Ultimately this makes as little sense as if we said, "It is raining," and then concluded that there must be an "it" which exists as a real and independent entity. The "it" is not a real entity, but just a word. In the same way, the "I" in "I am thinking" is not a real entity, but just a word.

The ultimate truth of reality is that in the sentence, "I am seeing an apple," only the "seeing" is real in the sense that it is directly experienced and its existence proven through direct experience. The "I" is inferred, just like the "apple" is inferred. We _know_ only that there is seeing, not that there is an apple or an "I," but because we make the incorrect assumption that whenever there is seeing, someone must be doing the seeing, we develop the illusion/delusion that this "I" must exist and be ultimately real.

The entire world is not really made up of things that independently exist and sometimes do stuff, but rather simply of events that just happen. The "things" that do stuff don't exist in any other form but as concepts in our minds. For example, when "I eat an apple," there is really seeing, touching, tasting. There is red, sweet, juicy, pleasant, but there is no "apple" other than the concept "apple," which the mind uses to label the collection of all those events. In exactly the same way there is no "I" other than the concept which the mind uses to label the collection of all the events that make up this experience called life.

By the way, thank you for helping with this clarification.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:52 am

What made you to see that truth ( any particular sentence, point.. etc. )? How that happened? And how does it feel now to live with that?

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phi
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby phi » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:35 am

What made me see the truth of non-self was direct observation of experience. I wanted to find out what this world is and also what I am. I found out this life is a sequence of events. I was intently observing each event as best I could, so for example, I would hear a noise (a bird), then acknowledge or "notice" or note the hearing, then a thought would come up ("bird"), and I noted the thought, then I would see brightness (of the sun shining onto my closed eyelids), then I noted the seeing, etc. etc. In essence, when I was concentrated enough, all life became a sequence like: Event, knowing of the event, event, knowing of the event, event, knowing of the event, ...
All the while, I was trying to get to the bottom of what I am: What is it that is knowing all these events? Of course, sometimes I noted the noting itself, but it still didn't click. Then one day, it just suddenly became clear: Each instance of noting is exactly the same type of event as all the other events I experience! So the experience of life suddenly changed from "event, knowing of event, event, knowing of event, ..." to simply "event, event, event, event, ..." This is something that didn't occur to me because of a specific sentence of word, but something I saw directly, which was neat, because it immediately made it absolutely clear and certain that I don't exist in any other way than as a name for a collection of events. Nothing else ultimately and really exists, other than these events, none of which are "me."

The exact instructions that I had to get to this point were different from what most people on here have apparently gone through. I was simply told to concentrate, become still, and then look at everything that impinges upon my consciousness. I was also told to make a label for every sensation I observed, but that it would be fine to stop labeling once the mind was able to observe better, more clearly, and faster without the labels. Finally I was told unpleasantness was to be expected and I should just continue doing what I was doing regardless. I followed those instructions, and within about four months, the above described insight happened.

It feels very good to live with the knowledge. It turns out over 90% of the unpleasantness of life was caused by the incorrect assumption that I have a self and the way to become happy is to try to make the self happy, to protect and defend it and do things that will indirectly bring pleasure to it. The most immediate effect of the insight was that I realized I have absolutely no responsibility to protect, defend, or bring pleasure to my "self," simply because the self does not exist as an entity that needs to be protected, defended, or pleasured or that has the power to cause happiness or unhappiness. This realization frees up the mind. No longer does it go:

"This was a pleasant sensation. Oops, now it's gone. How can I make sure to get more of this pleasant sensation? If I can't get it to come back or get another pleasant sensation like it, then I am a loser. I'm afraid this might happen. This fear is unpleasant, but justified, because I have to make sure I make myself happy, and right now I'm failing at that task. Why am I so incompetent? Ok, back to square one: How can I devise a plan that will bring more of that pleasant sensation to me? Why does life have to be so difficult? Why can't I just be happy? Everything would be so much better if there only were more pleasure in the world."

Now the process is:

"This was a pleasant sensation. Now it's over, which is no surprise, because all sensations pass away." At that point, the mind is ready for the next raw, direct experience. It does not start churning like before.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:52 am

You seem clear to me. Any doubts left?

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phi
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby phi » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:00 pm

No doubts about non-self. What I think is going to change, though, is mental patterns. The mind seems to be getting quicker and quicker at breaking mental patterns that make no more sense in light of this knowledge. The only "question" that's left is how far this can go, because there is still a small amount of unpleasantness left that is caused by thoughts. Technically, there is no reason why this should not eventually vanish. If my body is injured, obviously it's going to hurt. However, any thought that arises is partly the result of a mental pattern, so if the mind keeps clearing up, there may come a point when not a single unpleasant thought arises anymore. This has not happened in my case, and I wonder if it ever will, but these questions are not something I spend too much thought on. They are just what's left of the original doubts I had when I started looking for answers.

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Richard B.
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Re: phi, let's talk

Postby Richard B. » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:43 pm

Very nice phil. confirm.


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