Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

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Matrod
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Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:09 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the concept of self does not exist. "I", "Me", "Mine" are just misleading words or labels. We have been conditioned to believe there is "someone" guiding or directing our actions, and not to see life as a never-ending flow of things happening naturally at their own rhythm and pace. We just enjoy the ride, without having any control.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would say stability in the selfless self state. I searched for a long time and this search ended when I found a guide that made me see reality as it is. Nonetheless, this feeling or experience did not last long. I feel I'm experiencing being in and out of this state, and this calmness and inner peace is vanishing with time.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Powerful pointers and guidance to abide in the no self state. Really hard "punches", so to speak, to challenge what I take for granted to get rid of this separate self feeling or experience. Same with the oscillation I experience with this state, not being able to abide on it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Been on this search since I was young (around 15 years old), learned how to meditate and after experiencing first hand that life experiences are not fulfilling at all, got serious and started exploring Neurofeedback, Yoga, Advaita and recently enrolled in the Finders Course, which helped immensely to understand what reality is, giving me a definite framework of thinking regarding practices and such.

Back in 2017, I had a very profound shift thanks to Fred Davis, Nisargadatta and Ramakant Maharaj teachings. I finally could see reality clearly, but this was a very strong experience that vanished with time. I still practice self inquiry and meditation, along with Neurofeedback.

Found about Gateless Crashers and LU a while ago, but until now I decided to seek help, so to speak...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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Verananda
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Verananda » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:36 am

Hi Matrod,

welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you made it here.
I'm Verananda and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
Should I call you Matrod or is there another name you would prefer?

Here are some arrangements we make to work together:
First I want to ask you to check out the Quote-Function and use it as I did here. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers. You can see here how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

During our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each, you will look at your own direct experience (DE) and answer with 100% honesty. I point. You look. You tell me what you see right there.

It is vital that you really do each “experiment” I provide, answer each question and look at your direct experience — in the present moment — instead of relying on analytical thought or memory.

During this guiding, please avoid any other teachings, spiritual books, writings, YouTube videos or talks. If you have a meditation practice, feel free to continue with it as usual. It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction.

Please make an effort to write here every day or at least every second. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking. If you are unable to do this on occasion, or you need more time for looking just let me know. I'll do the same for you.

Do you agree with this?

Looking forward to our talk,
Verananda

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Matrod
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:08 pm

Hi Verananda,

Thanks for your reply. I really look forward to our conversation. You can call me Matrod if you like. I agree with all the requirements and suggestions you made.

Let's get started!

Hugs and love from Colombia.

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Verananda
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Verananda » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:37 pm

Hi Matrod,

You asked for "really hard punches", so here is the first one :-)

First I want to bring up some of your expectations you mentioned in your intro.

LU is not about reaching or abiding in a state. It is not about getting rid of anything.
It is about seeing truth directly in direct experience. This is not a question of time. It is here and now. And it is not reversible. Like santaclause: after you have catched uncle John putting on the costume and the white bearded the whole story is blown up. No way back. Or a mirage in the dessert. After you know for sure that it is a mirage the image stays, but there is no movement no attraction to go there.

What comes up when you read this?

Who or what is it, that wants one state and not the other?

Love verananda

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Matrod
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:59 am

Hi again Verananda,

That's exactly the point. "I"(note the quotes) am aware this is not a state or something to achieve. When "I" read your words somehow "I" feel the urge to just stop pretending what "I" perceive with my senses is all that it is and that reality does not exist. The itch of feeling there's something else behind is still there (and the funny part is that "I" know there's nothing there!).

Nobody wants to stay at this state or reach another one. The conceptual mind "gets it", nonetheless, the judging, comparing and feeling overwhelmed by emotions goes on, despite the fact nobody is there to receive those messages. The stress continues to take a toll on this body. Somehow "I" feel something is in the way of complete understanding, of just accepting life as it is, and such "experience" or "perception" is what "I" call liberation / freedom / enlightenment...

Does that help?

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Verananda
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Verananda » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:10 pm

Hi matrod
When "I" read your words somehow "I" feel the urge to just stop pretending what "I" perceive with my senses is all that it is and that reality does not exist.
What we do at LU is to look what is true, what can really be seen without any addition of mental concepts. How do you know that "reality does not exist"? Any proofs beyond thought content?

so we will start and have a look at this "direct experiencing". It is the basis of this work.
When looking at the entire spectrum of present experience it can be described with the terms
the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else" be just a thought about such a thing?
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!


Thought content is not part of direct experience. You can think out everything. Beautiful vacation, delicious ice cream, a big car ... It is nothing more that thought, right?
The conceptual mind "gets it", nonetheless, the judging, comparing and feeling overwhelmed by emotions goes on,
What is this in direct experience?

Love verananda

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Matrod
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:33 pm

Hi again Verananda,
so we will start and have a look at this "direct experiencing". It is the basis of this work.
When looking at the entire spectrum of present experience it can be described with the terms
the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else" be just a thought about such a thing?
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!

You're right. Aside of the sensory input, there's nothing I'm aware of. I was tempted to describe it as an infinite vacuum or the conscience where everything happens, but again, these are just concepts, mental constructs, resulting from years and years of meticulous indoctrination without discrimination.

Thought content is not part of direct experience. You can think out everything. Beautiful vacation, delicious ice cream, a big car ... It is nothing more that thought, right?

Right.

The conceptual mind "gets it", nonetheless, the judging, comparing and feeling overwhelmed by emotions goes on,

What is this in direct experience?

I suppose these are just ideas. I can't find a "mind" that "gets it", since it has no form or descriptive traits. It is just a bunch of thoughts and ideas, past and present recollections, nothing substantial. The thing is there is this habit of believing / thinking about a mind or a "self" (that is nowhere to be found) observing / judging and comparing. What is this all about?

Love from Colombia,

Matrod.

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Verananda
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Verananda » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:10 am

Hi Matrod,

The conceptual mind "gets it", nonetheless, the judging, comparing and feeling overwhelmed by emotions goes on,

What is this in direct experience?
I suppose these are just ideas. I can't find a "mind" that "gets it", since it has no form or descriptive traits. It is just a bunch of thoughts and ideas, past and present recollections, nothing substantial.
We look a bit deeper here. "Supposing" ist not enought! :-)
Are "ideas, past and present recollections" anything but thought?
It is "nothing substantial" .... The important question is: is it true? is any thought true for sure?
The thing is there is this habit of believing / thinking about a mind or a "self" (that is nowhere to be found) observing / judging and comparing.What is this all about?
Look in direct experience!!! (Dont think about, look!). What can you find?
... overwhelmed by emotions ...
We also have a look at these emotions. Next time they occure - overwhelming or not - look in direct experice and tell me what you find!

love verananda

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Matrod
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:27 pm

Hi again Verananda,
Look in direct experience!!! (Dont think about, look!). What can you find?
Now we are talking! The first and most important "obstacle" has been discovered: What is direct experience? How to look at it beyond the thoughts and senses / sensory input? How to avoid classifying / separating / judging the experience? Or in other words, how to just look?
We also have a look at these emotions. Next time they occure - overwhelming or not - look in direct experice and tell me what you find!
These experiences are just thoughts that trigger behavior patterns in the body, automated responses so to speak.
We look a bit deeper here. "Supposing" ist not enought! :-)
Are "ideas, past and present recollections" anything but thought?
It is "nothing substantial" .... The important question is: is it true? is any thought true for sure?
Nope, just thoughts. And no, no thought is true. It is just an assumption / something we take from granted out of the habit of listening to the inner voice in the head...

Love from Colombia,

Matrod.

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Verananda
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Verananda » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:04 pm

hi matrod,
Now we are talking! The first and most important "obstacle" has been discovered: What is direct experience? How to look at it beyond the thoughts and senses / sensory input?
It is not beyond anything. direct experience is what is seen, heard, (bodily) sensed, smelled, tasted and (observed) thought. And you told me some days ago aside this you can find anything else. right?
so anything you find must be made out of this stuff, right?
You are looking for something that does not exist! Thats exhausting! ;-)
How to avoid classifying / separating / judging the experience? Or in other words, how to just look?
It does not mean to avoid anything. Just see the classifying / separating / judging as it is. What is it in direct experience?
We dont try to look beyond, we look exactly at this what occures. It is very simple.
Do it - dont think about it - and tell me: What is it in direct experience?

love verananda

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Matrod
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:19 pm

Hi again,

Glad to be online at the same time!
It is not beyond anything. direct experience is what is seen, heard, (bodily) sensed, smelled, tasted and (observed) thought. And you told me some days ago aside this you can find anything else. right?
so anything you find must be made out of this stuff, right?
You are looking for something that does not exist! Thats exhausting! ;-)
It is exhausting indeed! And yes, I agree that direct experience is the raw information acquired by the senses. The issue arises when the mind kicks in and starts classifying / discriminating and putting labels on all this data. This is what I meant when I told you that aside of this "interpretation", there's only "raw data" so to speak.
It does not mean to avoid anything. Just see the classifying / separating / judging as it is. What is it in direct experience?
We dont try to look beyond, we look exactly at this what occures. It is very simple.
Do it - dont think about it - and tell me: What is it in direct experience?
Then things get complicated: Even knowing that thoughts are not real and the fact they are taken for granted automatically, this is when suffering starts...

Classifying / separating / judging are just thoughts, behavior patterns as I explained before. In direct experience there is only raw data...

And what is it that occurs? Nothing. Just life flowing and generating data as it goes. Just sensing, breathing, smelling, perceiving thoughts, hearing and seeing. The unsubstantial ideas keep coming and altering the pure experience of just perceiving... This is what happens in my experience right now.

Love from Colombia,

Matrod

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Verananda
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Verananda » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:35 pm

Classifying / separating / judging are just thoughts, behavior patterns as I explained before. In direct experience there is only raw data...
yes. just thoughts.
It is exhausting indeed! And yes, I agree that direct experience is the raw information acquired by the senses. The issue arises when the mind kicks in and starts classifying / discriminating and putting labels on all this data.
That sounds like a lot of thought!
Why is it an issue?
What is this "issue" in direct experience?
Who has this issue?
Who wants to have things different as they are?
Look at this "I" !
And what is it that occurs? Nothing. Just life flowing and generating data as it goes. Just sensing, breathing, smelling, perceiving thoughts, hearing and seeing. The unsubstantial ideas keep coming and altering the pure experience of just perceiving... This is what happens in my experience right now.
Yes exactly. Does it need an "I" to breath, smell, .....? Or is there just sensing, breathing, smelling ...?
It is more than nothing - it just is - but it is not comlicated or exhausting, isnt it?

love verananda

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Matrod
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:06 am

That sounds like a lot of thought!
Why is it an issue?
What is this "issue" in direct experience?
Who has this issue?
Who wants to have things different as they are?
Look at this "I" !
It is a lot of thought! It is an issue since it interferes with the pure direct experience, nonetheless, as you said, this issue is just another though, the interference is yet another thought and so on and so forth...

Who has this issue? Nobody. The "I" concept is yet another thought. Same for who wants to have different things as they are, another thought...

The "I", a thought by itself, has no substance and no distinctive traits. Something that has been repeated over and over again to make the brain believe there is a separate entity with preferences, feelings, etc. Just more thoughts!
And what is it that occurs? Nothing. Just life flowing and generating data as it goes. Just sensing, breathing, smelling, perceiving thoughts, hearing and seeing. The unsubstantial ideas keep coming and altering the pure experience of just perceiving... This is what happens in my experience right now.
Yes exactly. Does it need an "I" to breath, smell, .....? Or is there just sensing, breathing, smelling ...?
It is more than nothing - it just is - but it is not comlicated or exhausting, isnt it?
[/quote]

Life does not need an "I" to go on. It just is! No complications or exhaustion. I'm starting to realize I have expectations about what should happen, something like a big shift in perception, like all the problems and suffering should be erased when this shift happens, but at the same time this is obscuring the whole direct experience since there is nobody to have these expectations or to perceive a shift, as a matter of fact, nothing will change radically from the perceptions point of view... Just don't know. The focus now is on the experience itself, without labels or classification. Tension in the body still exists, but it seems like a behavior pattern, the incapacity of the "mind" (just another concept grouping endless concepts around it) to accept what it is. Acceptance, another seductive thought, more expectations keep coming, and I view them as such...

Any other suggestions on experiencing life's direct experience as it is? (I know, it is the mind trying to "grasp" the concept and categorize it again... More thoughts...)

Last but not least, it is like learning how to view life from another point of view that has no place or time! So weird and funny at the same time (more thoughts trying to classify direct experience...)

Love from Colombia.

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Verananda
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Verananda » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:17 am

hi matrod,
Any other suggestions on experiencing life's direct experience as it is? (I know, it is the mind trying to "grasp" the concept and categorize it again... More thoughts...)
;-)
Looking at the root of this issue to see if it makes sense to invest energy here!
If we can do anything.
Or if it is just thoughts producing thoughts producing thoughts ...... no free will ... no doer to stop.
After seeing truth, something stops by its own.
Like the mirage in the dessert. After you know for sure that it is a mirage the image stays, but there is no movement no attraction to go there.
It is exactly what we do step by step!

We do an experiment next:

Take some time and sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

I'm curious about what you find out!

warmly
verananda

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Matrod
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Re: Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

Postby Matrod » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:50 pm

Like the mirage in the dessert. After you know for sure that it is a mirage the image stays, but there is no movement no attraction to go there.
Indeed. I have no interest to keep seeking anymore. Stabilization is the word... But as you said nobody is doing anything. Is just thought after thought after thought... No will. Just life flowing.
Take some time and sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
This was a bit difficult to do. Just to observe and not getting entangled in the countless stories thoughts bring on. But I managed to do it.
Where are they coming from and going to?
They are coming from nothing and going to nothingness.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No. They appeared on their own. No control at all.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Nope.
Can you predict your next thought?
Not at all.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Nope. Wish "I" could! (Just joking...)
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Not at all.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Nope.

That's it from now. No control whatsoever over the mind or the thought producing engine...

Love from Colombia,

Matrod.


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