Crossed the gate but it's gateless gate, who would where the boundary is

[Photon]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Most, if not all, act, behaves, feel, think and talk as if they are responsible for their actions and so everybody else for their action and LU is aim to dispel this illusion and unable all to see that there is no individual who is directing anything, that it's all a one movement and what is, is.

What are you looking for at LU?
On Saturday evening, at Step 5 of the book, it became suddenly clear that there is no separation or separation of any kind to anything at any time is ever possible and with that seeing the idea of a separate self suddenly vanished. I'm not looking for anything as any outcome will be arising to no one but since reading the book I'm connecting to express my gratitude.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
As the individual self is seen through I do not have any expectation but since you ask I would just like to know that my feeling of passing through the gate is not a trick of the mind and what I have seen is true.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
About 7 years ago I came across teaching of Adi Shankara and advaita which lead me to reading messages of Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramesh Balsaker etc. I have met with an advaita teacher twice. I have been looking at videos on Advaita and non-duality, read few books. But I have not been to any retreats or done any meditations.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Verananda]

Hi Photon,

welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you made it here.
I'm Verananda and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.

What exactly happend when the idea of a separate self vanished?
What has changed in everyday life ?
and what stayed the same?

but since you ask I would just like to know that my feeling of passing through the gate is not a trick of the mind and what I have seen is true.

What exactly is this last doubt?
You say "what I have seen" ... can you see it here and now?


Looking forward to our talk,
Verananda

[Photon]

Hi Verananda,

Thanks for your message and I'm glad that you will be guiding me.

What exactly happend when the idea of a separate self vanished?

Standing next to the kitchen platform and looking around, I finally I found that there is no separation anywhere and any perceived separation is purely a thought, an idea, conjecture and blind belief.
With it went the idea of the separate self which is a concocted entity, a phantom and only appears an idea, as thought. With this went questions and the need for answers. Everything is fine as it is, complete. I always had inclination that thinking just happens but at times thoughts would appear to say I was the conductor of my actions but thinking happens, actions happen but nobody is going them. It's a relief not to be the agent of actions.

What has changed in everyday life?

Everything seem to be appearing at their nature flow, body functioning at natural rythm, no more thoughts about the past or future but dealing with matters as they arise. The 'me' thoughts are noticed when they arise. There's realisation that things will take its natural course without the 'me'.

and what stayed the same?

Appearance wise there's no discernible difference, things are as they are, but now the flow is more harmonious.

What exactly is this last doubt?

Well, the personal self is seen to be thought arising and not an entity so that's quite clear. Seer, seeing and the seen have been collapsed in to just seeing. So who would want to know if the gate is crashed anyway.

can you see it here & now?

No. Seeing of texts, hearing of passing cars, thinking of writing is happening.

[Verananda]

Hi Photon,

everything you write sounds authentic and like realy seen through the illusion.

can you see it here & now?

No. Seeing of texts, hearing of passing cars, thinking of writing is happening.

;-) yes

you wrote: "...passing through the gate is not a trick of the mind and what I have seen is true"
you wrote it in the past tense.
seeing through the illusion is not an experience in the past (that would be thought here and now, right?).
It is here and now, absoloutly clear, that there is no seperate self and there never was one.
Is it that? realy and non intellectual seen? Any doubt?


And what about past and future, does this exist? is it real?

love
verananda

[Photon]

Hi Verananda,

Thanks for your reply.

seeing through the illusion is not an experience in the past (that would be thought here and now, right?).

Yes you're right seeing of the illusion of a separate self has to be now, otherwise it would a thought in the form of a memory.

It doesn't seem to be an intellectual seeing otherwise it would just set of words and ideas springing from the memory bank. Separate self cannot be found.

And what about past and future, does this exist? is it real?

Past and future, does not and cannot exist, except in thought. Thinking of past event can happen but doesn't make it real. Future planning can happen but cannot make future true.

loving back
Photon

[Verananda]

is there any open question from your side?

otherwise I could give the "6 final questions" to you.
It is a good opportunity to check if all aspects of no-self are seen through.
If there is something not clear we will have a look to it together.

[Photon]

Thank you. Verananda.

The unfolding will happen by itself so no expectations.

You can hit me with the final questions but I will not be able to reply unti tomorrow unfortunately.

Thanks,
Photon

[Verananda]

no problem, take all the time you need !

You answered some of these aspects in your posts before. It is a good way to write fresh from now and be curious what shows up! :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

looking forward to your answers :-)
love verananda

[Verananda]

Hi Photon,

how are you doing with the final questions?

love verananda

[Photon]

Hi Vernanda,

Apologies for the delay, long story so I will spare you the details.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no separate self to be found. It seems that thoughts in the forms of I am, I will, I do, I should, I shouldn't, I can, I can't etc appear and give the illusion of separate self but when I look there's no separate self but disparate and disjointed thought patterns giving the impression of a doer, maker but it's nothing but mirage.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The first ever experience of separation that I can recall is about when I was started primary school and I was made to sing (I can't sing BTW) a nursery rhyme on my own in front of what looked like the whole school. And from then on the little self got bigger and bigger as the time went on. I then found myself to be agent of what I thought were my actions and got either punished or rewarded, or at least that's how it seemed. Nobody in particular are doing it, it all part of one big movement but parents, teachers, friends, colleagues, keep reinforcing the non-existent self.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

• Less judgmental about right/wrong good/bad
• Seeing Extraordinary beauty in simple of things like how seeds are packed in pomegranate
• Body functioning at its natural rhythm
• procrastination is reduced to bear minimum
• Near collision when a car pulled in front from the right hand side, breaks were immediately applied, swerved slightly to the left to avoid contact, heart rate raised, horn beeped everything seemed to have happened automatically and I seem to be a bystander
• things happening automatically that there's no unnecessary worry what should've, would've, could've been
• I find that if expectation is not there then I'm reconciled with what is
• things are done more efficiently and better when 'I" is absent
• needless to say 'I' is not there to benefit from it but that is what is.
• concept such as time, space, ego, freewill, actions, responsibilities, rewards, risks are irrelevant now. Not that these are not considered, the brain goes through the automatic process but it doesn't require the manager to oversee the operations
• thoughts still come up and they seem to have practical purpose but mentation, monkey mind, seems to be absent now

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I read frequently from Kindle on the phone and Liberation Unleashed book was part of the list of recommended books and the next thing I know reading was happening and I liked the layout out of the book with transcript of actual dialogue that was taking place and not just dry theoractical discussions. I didn't decide to look, whilst I was reading the looking was happening.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

• Decisions happen, decision maker only shows afterwards
• Intention - just a thought
• free will - happening, who is there to exercise this anyways
• choice - illusion of choice appears
• control - nobody is there to control

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Have no idea how it works, but it works wonderful without an 'I'

c) What are you responsible for?

This was the one thing that was bugging me for a while until I looked. I have two young children, 15 and 11 year old, and I wish best of the world for them and I thought it is my complete responsibility to ensure that they have the best future that they derseve. But now the sense of responsibility has disappeared and now there's clarity and direction. I know things will take care of themselves without 'me' doing anything. The power, the movement, that has brought me here will take them, or rather they will be ever in present. And the beauty is that they or I don't have to do anything to make it happen.

Thank you,
Photon

[Verananda]

Hi Photon,

thank you for your wonderful answeres!
I have one last question:

Decisions happen, decision maker only shows afterwards

What is this decision maker?

Love Verananda

[Photon]

What is this decision maker?

Decision making seem to work a bit like a navigation app, it looks at current location, destination road maps already in memory bank, obtains current traffic data, goes through various permutations and throw out optimum route based on current capabilities and available information which can change during the journey. Many times its as per original prediction, some times later and rarely ahead of time.

When events are favourable than the decision maker shows up to take the credits and if unfavourable then it's obviously to do with external factors.

Actions happen and events take place but decision making and the decision maker occur after the movements are already underway. It normally in the form thought that say I'm deciding or I've decided, and it seemed so real in the past but now found it to be univestigated assumption.

[Verananda]

Hi Photon,

great!

At the moment I have no further questions.

The other guides will have a look at it.

I will post again soon.

Love
Verananda

[Photon]

Hi Verananda,

Thank you for your help and guidance. Your input and questions were spot on that helped me look, reflect and writing down has really helped.

Thanks again,

Love,
Photon

[Verananda]

Hi Photon,

welcome through the Gateless Gate. There are no further questions for you.

Your name has been changed from green to blue on the forum, which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. Our conversation is technically concluded and our thread has been moved to Archive section.

Keep an eye out for PM (privat message) from admin team which invites you to LU Facebook groups and has other information and resources.

It was a pleasure for me!

Love

Verananda