Unveiling

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BlakeBlue
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Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:12 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That one explores the mind - body relationship to discover that there is no separate self. To awaken to the realisation that we are not the observed, nor the thinker or the feeler, but the observer.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to unveil the illusion of a separate I, and to strengthen my skills as the observer that lies behind, the observer who is in deep communion with All. I'd like to unveil reality - bring closer the Godliness in me and everything around me as an interconnected being. Not by killing the I, but by observing it, and realising it is an illusion that stands between me and the flowing of all things.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I like to be pointed to my false I, and the way it affects my perception of reality as it is shaped in day-to-day situations. I'd like also, to develop a meaningful relation with my guide that transcends the pointing, and to be able to share and discuss experiences, and talk about the path as it unfolds itself. I'm looking for connection.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have experience in Buddhist meditation, bodywork and medicinal work.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:41 am

Hello BlakeBlue. :) Welcome to LU!



My name is Bananafish, one of the guides here.
I'd be more than glad to help you.




When you're ready, can we start by pondering on the question below?:




If there is no separate self anywhere, can there be observer and observed?
Are they something separate?



I'd like you to question, or even challenge this idea that there is an observer that
is in communion, or that there is something like a "skill as an observer."



Looking forward to your reply!



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:02 pm

Hi Bananafish,

I’m happy to read your reply :). Thank you for wanting to be my guide.

in the case of no seperate self anywhere, there can not be observer and observed, or a self in communion with anything else. Thank you for pointing :)

I feel I’m tangled up in non-dual / dual thinking. I’ve been reading the yoga sutras by patanjali, based on Sankhya, dual thought, and then, non-dualist Advaita Vedanta. I’m scratching the surface, and am confused. Can I continue reading the yoga sutras while we go through this process together? Or is there anything else you’d recommend me to read? Or nothing at all?

Excited to be here :),

BlakeBlue

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:26 pm

Did I come here to soon maybe? I jumped in without much prior knowledge, and in full exploration phase... I’d be willing to educate myself more if it benefits the process... I’d like to make the most out of this (and out of your time and guidance), but how does one do this? Is prior knowledge needed for the pointing to be more effective?

What would you recommend?

Thank you,
BlakeBlue

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:51 am

Hi BlakeBlue! Very nice to hear from you. :)


Do you know what the perfect timing to come here is?
The moment you came here! No worries, no need for special preparation
for this process. :)



The only things I’d like you to know about the process might be these:



1. I ask specific questions, and you answer with atmost honesty.

2. You are going to observe what is happening here and now. without referring
to thoughts nor images.

3. It’s better to reply on a daily basis, and it’s better to stop reading,
watching videos etc.



As stated above, 100% honesty, being engaged, and dropping all logic and theories
will greatly help.



So now, please tell me what “self” is, here and now in your experience.
Be sure that you are 100% honest, and avoid referring to ideas for answers. :)



Warm regards,



Bananafish

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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:53 am

Whoops, typo. :p

atmost → utmost

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:28 pm

Hi Bananafish,

Self is annoyed by the electrical heater fanning that she now turns off to focus better on your question. Self frowns before switching off the fanner. Now she feels more relaxed, yet she feels her nagging back pain she’s been having for years, and she wonders why she is telling you this. Isn’t this an idea? Why can’t she focus on what you asked? She is listening to the typing in the neighbouring room. Your question makes self feel mostly her senses, interlaced with thoughts. She listens to the cars outside, and a brief thought flashes by about peak hour comming on. She feels slightly annoyed because self is sensitive to noise. She feels the nervousness of the traffic as if it is in her, but she realizes this is more an idea she tells herself, then that it directly related to this experience, traffic in this room isn’t that loud currently. Self considers shutting herself off from the world and go for a nap. There is a sudden wave of anxiety somewhere in the head and in the chest because self doesn’t know if her writing is not exactly the ideas you Asked her to avoid. Self likes to do things well. She wonders if it is silly to write about ‘she’, but somehow it happened like this. Self right now is a stomach, the pressure of clenching front teeth, a shallow breath, pain in the back, a voice that seems to echo what the fingers type on the smartphone. It is unclear if fingers or voice in the head are first. This now becomes another idea. The heartbeat raises slightly, did the idea trigger it?

Does this answer your question?

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:51 pm

(I want to share with you that ‘I’ was born 30 years ago - I turned 30 today. While people celebrate the day they were born on these days, you and I, through this process, are celebrating that I never existed. I find it beautiful. This gift of no-self, is the best gift I could get on ‘my’ ‘birthday’ :) thank you for celebrating with me :))

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:00 pm

(Or does no self mean there is nothing to celebrate, and no special days to mention? :))

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:18 pm

Hi BlakeBlue. Happy un-birth day. :)

Yes, being present is the best present, so to say. And self can never be
here in the present moment.


You’re already doing a great job! Please keep going.


Your question makes self feel mostly her senses, interlaced with thoughts.


Great observation. :)


Please keep looking at the senses and thoughts, and
when noticing them, look for a “self” that is feeling the
senses and thinking the thoughts. Literally look for it,
as if you were looking for, say, a wallet that is missing.


Self right now is a stomach, the pressure of clenching front teeth, a shallow breath, pain in the back, a voice that seems to echo what the fingers type on the smartphone.


Can a stomach be “you” and “stomach” at the same time?
What about the teeth, breath, back, and the voice?



Best wishes,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:58 am

Evening Bananafish :),
Please keep looking at the senses and thoughts, and
when noticing them, look for a “self” that is feeling the
senses and thinking the thoughts.
There is a beating heart, a rumbling stomach, and a tingling liquid light that waves outwards, from heart to tips of fingers in a dark, quiet room. Sometimes there is a nerve node that pops somewhere. A tape recorder of thoughts plays in the head. There seems to be no self.

But then...
Literally look for it,
as if you were looking for, say, a wallet that is missing.
This is where self feels herself. In the looking - the directing of attention, like a hand that scans things in a dark room with a flashlight. Who directs the hand? Who looks for the wallet?

It is in the directing from the attention from beating heart, to waves of energy, to taperecorder of thoughts that no thing seems to become self. It arises with the doing. If self is unreal, how can it look for a wallet?
Can a stomach be “you” and “stomach” at the same time?
What about the teeth, breath, back, and the voice?
There are waves of energy, like a tingling liquid light, running through Self’s body Right now.

This is where self feels herself too: where the tingling stops - the limits of inner space that stop the scanning and make apparent the difference between inside and out. That is why self calls it ‘her body’ and why she thinks she is stomach, and stomach is self. Self can not feel any other heart beating like she feels ‘her’ own.

To summarize: while there is a beating heart, a tape recorder of thoughts running, a stomach rumbling, and no self to be witnessed, self comes into play by directing attention, and experiencing the limits in direction. So self experiences herself in the hand that scans a room with a flashlight, and in the walls of the room that limit the scanning.

I wonder if this makes any sense...

(PS I am not a native English speaker, and it is late)

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:24 pm

Hi BlakeBlue. :)


This is where self feels herself. In the looking - the directing of attention, like a hand that scans things in a dark room with a flashlight. Who directs the hand? Who looks for the wallet?

It is in the directing from the attention from beating heart, to waves of energy, to taperecorder of thoughts that no thing seems to become self. It arises with the doing. If self is unreal, how can it look for a wallet?


When attention is directed to a particular object, can you really observe
“you” doing it? How is it perceived?



This is where self feels herself too: where the tingling stops - the limits of inner space that stop the scanning and make apparent the difference between inside and out. That is why self calls it ‘her body’ and why she thinks she is stomach, and stomach is self.


Please close your eyes and feel the body.
Without relying on any image or thought about the body,
can you tell where the body starts and where it ends?


Self can not feel any other heart beating like she feels ‘her’ own.


Does “other heart” exist. How can “other heart” be perceived, in your direct experience of here
and now?


I wonder if this makes any sense...

(PS I am not a native English speaker, and it is late)


Neither am I! No worries, your writing is making perfect sense. :)



Warm regards,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:38 pm

Hello Bananafish,


This post was written in two times: a part now, another part last night. I marked the two different times in my reply to you.

When attention is directed to a particular object, can you really observe “you” doing it? How is it perceived?

last night


I can now observe the direction is a thought. It is a thought connecting two other thoughts to each other. It connects one concept / image (heart) to another (tingling, taperecorder) via another concept / image - the scanning. It becomes a string of thoughts, of which the thoughts are the beads. Only when a concept is defined, there can be a motion from here to there, or from inside and out. But that too has become a concept, in thinking about it, and writing it down to you.


How did the image / concept of the string of thoughts arise? How was it experienced?

Please close your eyes and feel the body. Without relying on any image or thought about the body, can you tell where the body starts and where it ends?

last night


When Self closes the eyes, in the dark room, and scans the borders to where the tingling stops, and lets go of the image and thoughts about body, body starts to melt, there is space and things randomly happening in space, no distance. It is unclear what is happening, where, there is just experience, without values, images or thoughts. No body is felt.


Self feels that the limits of the body she described yesterday, were the bounds of the concept / image 'body'. Self now zooms in on her beating heart. The only thing Self can say with certainty, is that something happens. Mind has conceptualized it as 'heart' - and as self explores 'heart', self can even see an image when she zooms in on the beating. So heart is an image, an idea. (As are tape recorder and tingling). In case of heart language has called it beating. Mind says Self has a heart. Mind painted it red. Mind shaped it into a heart. While actually, all Self (concept) can say (concept) when she (concept) lies (concept) in the dark (concept) room (concept) with closed (concept) eyes (concept) is that things happen, and reality changes. Self has claimed these happenings to be hers. Self has called one of them 'heart', as self names everthing, and makes sense of happenings by images, concepts and ideas. A matrix, spun by Self's mind.


Self realizes even the matrix is yet another concept, and thinking about this, she gets tied up in an endless succession of chambers. Stripping one thought brings forth another. And another, and another, like an infinite echo. Self is thought. Self turns back to direct experience, for she realizes this is the only way out, the only way to cut throught the veil of illusions, the illusion of Self, and the idea of pointing in Liberation Unleashed.


Blakeblue stands up in the dark room, and has no real concept of self, she has no body, as if she looks through the eyes of an avatar in a first-person shooter game, there is no memory of Self, alienation, until BlakeBlue steps into the cold kitchen, and an icy current - (concept), and a shiver (concept), brings back body and Self. Self starts grating carrots because Self remembers she likes carrots. Self becomes self through the memory, the thought of liking carrots, the doing of the peeling, the thinking about doing.


How can we hold on direct experience (and prevent slipping into thought)?

Code: Select all

Does “other heart” exist. How can “other heart” be perceived, in your direct experience of here and now?

written today


Self closes her eyes and feels a beating (concept). She can just feel it happening. No (other) heart, nor (other) beating can be perceived in direct experience. There are no hearts. Things just happen :).

Have a wonderful evening Bananafish (I found out you are in Japan :)),
BlakeBlue

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:17 pm

PS I understand that I intellectualized too much in the previous post, and that discribing direct experience is crucial to look past the veil, burst the bubble of false self that is one big concept, and keeps on existing when we think, describe, perceive and interpretate in thoughts and images. It feeds the false self, and as long as we relate to experience in this way, false self sticks to us like a skin. False self is one big concept. I imagine it will take a lot of training, like a deprogramming course.

As you made me see when you asked me 'what is body without thoughts or images', this false self is so subtle, and we are so deeply identified with images and concepts, that even when we think there are none:
There is a beating heart, a rumbling stomach, and a tingling liquid light that waves outwards, from heart to tips of fingers in a dark, quiet room. Sometimes there is a nerve node that pops somewhere. A tape recorder of thoughts plays in the head. There seems to be no self.
we are thinking in them. Yesterday I experienced the mind fuck after reading your reply and exploring 'body', and realizing the subtilities and slyness of Self. Please drag me deeper... while also unsettling, this is what I'm looking for.

And now, no more thoughts, 'I' promise - but I wouldn't take 'my' word for it ;).

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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:13 am

Dear Bananafish,

I hope you don't mind me writing before you answering the previous post, but yesterday I didn't really write - the previous post described the experience of the night before, and today I might not have time to write due to a busy schedule.

Please tell me if I'm writing too much. I understand that you do this in your free time, and I don't want to be too much. From my side, I love to write, and to explore, and this guided exploration, this quest to no-self, receives all my attention and devotion. It is essential :).

This was already written last night, after I did the same exercise you gave me the night before, (I didn't receive a new one - maybe due to our differences in time zone (I'm in Europe)), of exploring body:

Self was just meditating in the dark room again, and she became witness of what she would now describe as a 'mind scape': several external events - noises, smells, ... - and internal events - body and thoughts - were happening. None of them were continues. At least not in Self's perception: attention wandered from one to the other in the form of thoughts. These thoughts happened randomly, like dolphins jump up from a sea (metaphor of dolphins by Thomas Metzinger in 'Are You Sleepwalking Now?').

Sometimes these dolphins latched onto external events, then to bodily events: but it was only when the dolphin jumped up, that the event came into awareness, and was termed / labelled as 'internal' or 'external', and it became a thought, a concept. For example: an external sound in the neighbour's house - 'the neighbour's dog barks', then internal in the form of judgement: 'It's annoying' and then in the body 'the heartbeat rises because the dog barks and it is annoying'.
It becomes a string of thoughts, of which the thoughts are the beads.
The previously described 'string of thoughts' thus now was apparent too: like a cascading effect, where thoughts describe a causal connection: barking dog - annoyance - raised heartbeat. The longer Self was in meditation, the calmer the sea, the less frequent the dolphins, the quicker Self could recognise them as such, and the more they felt like happenings, not full-blown thoughts, and the more the cascading effect of thoughts could be limited. So it became a sea of events, or a mind scape of happenings, popping up and fading again. The sense of no-self was in that these events seemed to happen randomly, and there was not a clear feeling of anyone controlling them, or steering direction from one event to the next. You can not control dolphins, can you? 

Then however, two men came out into the courtyard of the walled city garden, speaking Arabic in violent, loud, violent voices (the window was open). A school of tumbling dolphins now jumped up from the sea, and self was on the forefront of stage. Self tried to make sense of the conversation in a language she does not understand. Self now felt threatened: their heated discussion and the smell of cigarettes drifting through the window, brought up dark memories. Self was now much her body again: as she felt a raised heartbeat, and a pressure in the chest. While before she could feel the heartbeat more like a happening, now it was her heart, and it hurt, and she wanted it to calm down, and the men to go away. The cascading effect of thoughts was strong now, like an avalanche Self was drowning in. Self tried to see the conversation, the heartbeat and the pressure in the chest as mere events, but with every loud bark, Self became more present and defensive, and the string of thoughts became longer, and the thoughts being thoughts less 'graspable'. Self was thought.

Same happened in the previous experience of the same exercise you gave me:
Blakeblue stands up in the dark room, and has no real concept of self, she has no body, as if she looks through the eyes of an avatar in a first-person shooter game, there is no memory of Self, alienation, until BlakeBlue steps into the cold kitchen, and an icy current - (concept), and a shiver (concept), brings back body and Self. Self starts grating carrots because Self remembers she likes carrots. Self becomes self through the memory, the thought of liking carrots, the doing of the peeling, the thinking about doing.
There is a sense of detachement in the quietness of dark meditation, but when Self gets up, puts on the light, starts to move, starts doing things, the sense-making and conceptualising starts, as happened the night before yesterday when Self walked down the stairs and the environment changes: 'light switch', 'light', 'room', 'iron bars', 'stairs', 'door knob', 'open' 'kitchen', 'current', 'cold', 'carrot', 'self likes carrots' or when something in the outside world happens, like yesterday night: 'Arabic', 'men', 'danger', 'cigarettes', 'heart', 'pain'. Then dolphins jump up abundantly, laughing, tumbling and flipping their fins, Self gets tied up in concepts and thoughts, and I am deeply identified with Self.

In the quiet dark things seem to be happening, but self is much more manifest as she feels bombarded with audible and visual cues in a changing environment, or when she is doing things. Then she feels like the doer of the deeds, the thinker of the thoughts, the feeler of the feelings. 

How do we cope in an environment that is so dynamic and complex? How do we cope when we do things? Do our day-to-day tasks? When we are confronted to (trauma) triggers that can set off an avalanche of thoughts?

Have a wonderful day,
BlakeBlue


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