Love

[Gwendy]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Seeiing through the illusion of the "me". Being free from the one that wants to be free.

What are you looking for at LU?
To investigate blinds spots, to see things that are overlooked, to look at held beliefs, to investigate "anything" that is keeping me from seeiing permanently through the false self. To finally rest in who I am.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I do not have expectations from the conversation.............................................................................................................................................

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The work: Byron Katie
Jed Mc Kenna: Nav series, trilogy and books
Meditation every day (1 hour)
Silent retreats Jeff foster
Scott Kiloby: you tube and books

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[barb]

Hi Gwendy!

My name is Barb and I would like to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions. You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience... :)

This simple seeing also notices that there is no self here - there's just what is going on, that this is already going on for everyone right now. But the mind comes in and makes it complicated and says it's difficult and out of reach. My job as a guide is to help you to see that this basic awareness/seeing is always here and always has been.

Please read this links before we begin:


Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Much love
Barb

[Gwendy]

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Dearest Barb,

Thanks a lot for your answer and for your time and help.

I read the disclaimer and the other links.

Warmth

Gwen

[barb]

Great, thanks for reading the links, including the disclaimer and how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please. I will do it too..

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation this includes also the other threads in this forum. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the following questions::


What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?
What will change, what will remain the same?
What do you expect, what do you hope?


Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.


If you do not mind, I would like to give up the greeting to get into a better flow..

I am looking forward to your answers

:)

[Gwendy]

What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?

Honestly? I have no idea what it will feel like.
Maybe there could be a relaxation of the body-mind.
MUST feel like a giant relief

What will change, what will remain the same?

I don't know what will change.
Maybe the energy that is now spend on seeking something other than what is will come to rest.

What do you expect, what do you hope?

As I said before, I don't have much expectations. I did everything I could do to wake up.
It's not going to happen and I realise that. I can't do it! Actually I don't have any hopes any more.

Warmth
Gwen

[barb]

Sounds pretty good :) It is better to have not much expectations, they can be a hindrance for the process. It is different for everyone, but your expectations sounds realisitic..Nevertheless, please put them aside for the duration of our conversation

I did everything I could do to wake up. It's not going to happen and I realise that.

Please write down all the reactions, body sensations, feelings and thoughts that come up when you read this sentence:

There is no I, never, nowhere, and never existed. There is no one who experiences something, no one who thinks, decides and acts. There is no one who could wake up.

I look forward to your reactions :)

[Gwendy]

There is no I, never, nowhere, and never existed.

There's a sensation in the chest. The heart beating faster. Fear?
This sounds true
It resonates
Barb is speaking the truth
Who's reading this?
Who's trying to undertand this?
Who's trying to make sense out of this.
the answer is always this silence (and more silence)

There is no one who experiences something,

Sensations in the throat, heart is beating quite fast.
Why do I have the feeling that there is someone here.
What is here?
Silence
I've looked so many times during meditation to find this someone who experiences something.
The experiencer
but I can't find one.
All I find is a thought and more thoughts
like there is a stickyness to this I thought.
This I thought is like a gluestick
It seems there's someone believing these thoughts of an experiencer
But I can't find one...

no one who thinks,

Sensations in the chest. thightness in the throat.
This is very clear.
I see this.
Thoughts come and go.
They are harmless
Why can't I just let them be?
Who wants to let them be?
silence
They're not mine
Who am I
Who's the thinker?
more silence....

no one who decides

Sensation on the left eye,
Sensation in the chest
Sensations in the belly
Who decides?
There must be someone
Who's taking all these decisions?
Who the fuck is living my life then?
Again silence
Tears want to come
They're coming

No one who acts.

This is not funny anymore
Am I a puppet and who's puppet am I
This goddamned silence
Heart starts beating fast now
What the fuck am I
Please
Sensations in the throat
Tears in the eyes
Sensations in the head like there's a hammer in my head

There is no one who could wake up.

Silence
and more tears
and my dog starts licking my face

[barb]

Wonderful :)

At first a little explanation about LOOKING:

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to your current experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought in and of itself does not contain any experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

There's a sensation in the chest. The heart beating faster. Fear?

Is there really fear? Look at it! Or is it just a thought named „fear“?

the answer is always this silence (and more silence)

Great that you have already seen the silence... Silence is THE answer!

Why do I have the feeling that there is someone here.
What is here?

Really the feeling of „someone“? Or simply a sense of self..
A sense of self, like a sense of balance, can be a useful tool. An organism can orient in relation to complex environments, mapping danger and opportunity It will not vanish, even after gate :) So what!

I've looked so many times during meditation to find this someone who experiences something.
The experiencer
but I can't find one. All I find is a thought and more thoughts

What if there is only experience and no separation, no experiencer? Trust experience rather than thoughts :)

Try it with sound. Listen for 2 minutes with closed eyes to the surrounding sounds. Where does the sound begin and where does it end? Is there a boundary, a separation? Is there a hearer? Or is there simply hearing happening?

Why can't I just let them be?

Is this more than a thought?
Can you controll „your“ thoughts? Think of a number between 1 and 100.. Do you coose a number, or bubbles it simply up? Is it necessecary that there is a thinker? What if there are just thoughts and no thinker? LOOK again if there is a thinker! That which is real must be always here!

Who's taking all these decisions? 
Who the fuck is living my life then? 

Must there be a „who“? Decisions happens, nobody decides... Can you find an „I“ which is living „your“ life? Can you find a boundary somewhere? Between „you“ and „Life“? LOOK! What if Life is life-ing. no separation, totally simple :)

Please answer all questions fresh from the moment and not out of past insights..

:)

[Gwendy]

Is there really fear? Look at it! Or is it just a thought named „fear“?

It's just a thought named 'fear'. Nothing more than sensations in the body and the thought that it is fear.

Great that you have already seen the silence... Silence is THE answer!

Yes! Always ...

Really the feeling of „someone“? Or simply a sense of self..

Difficullt to answer your question. Must be a sense of self.
If I look for a someone there is nobody here, only sensations in the body, hands on the keyboard moving and pressing the keys. thoughts, the computer, a table, chairs, walls, the floor, a carpet, a cup of tea, feelings in the body, the taste of the tea,...

What if there is only experience and no separation, no experiencer? Trust experience rather than thoughts :)

If there is only experience; seeiing, hearing, smelling, feeling, thinking and no one to experience than the experience and experiencer are one. I am the sensations in the body, the hands on the keyboard, the computer, the table, the floor, the carpet, the tea and the taste of the tea. I see that there is no separation. Here where my head is, is only this wide open aware space. It's huge and non judgmental,it's silent, indifferent, peaceful,and contains everything. and the distance between my hands and this space is non existant because my hands are the space...

Try it with sound. Listen for 2 minutes with closed eyes to the surrounding sounds. Where does the sound begin and where does it end? Is there a boundary, a separation? Is there a hearer? Or is there simply hearing happening?

I did this exercise so many times. The sound is simply here. it doesn't have a beginning and doesn't have an ending. It takes no effort to hear the sound but there's a thought that says. I'm hearing. Hearing is just happening

Must there be a „who“? Decisions happens, nobody decides...

Yes it's all happening in this!

Can you find an „I“ which is living „your“ life?

No I can't.There's just what's happening!

Can you find a boundary somewhere? Between „you“ and „Life“? LOOK! What if Life is life-ing. no separation, totally simple :)

[/quote]

I can't find a boundary, I can't find separation. It's a different way of looking

[barb]

If I look for a someone there is nobody here, only sensations in the body, hands on the keyboard moving and pressing the keys. thoughts, the computer, a table, chairs, walls, the floor, a carpet, a cup of tea, feelings in the body, the taste of the tea,...

Great, that's it.. so simple :)

If there is only experience; seeiing, hearing, smelling, feeling, thinking and no one to experience than the experience and experiencer are one.

Could there be anything other than experience? Is a „non-experience“ possible?

I am the sensations in the body, the hands on the keyboard, the computer, the table, the floor, the carpet, the tea and the taste of the tea. I see that there is no separation.

Is it necesarry that an „I am“ exists? Is it not enough that there is experience whithout an I? Is the word „I“ more than a label? Take a piece of paper and write the word „I“ on it. Becomes the paper to an „I“? The paper is real, you can see it, smell it, touch it, even hear and taste it. What about the „I“?

And a few questions from the post before which you did not answer yet:

Why can't I just let them be?

Look, where is the „I“ that wants to let the thoughts be?
Is this more than a thought?
Can you controll „your“ thoughts? Can you choose to only think pleasant thoughts?
Think of a number between 1 and 100.. Do you coose a number, or bubbles it simply up?
Is it necessecary that there is a thinker? What if there are just thoughts and no thinker?
LOOK again if there is a thinker!

Must there be a „who“? Decisions happens, nobody decides...
Can you find an „I“ which is living „your“ life?

This "who am I" could sometimes be a little bit deceptive, because it contains the expectation that there would have to be someone, an separate entity, to be found.

It would be best if you forgot the "who am I" for the duration of our investigation here ;)

Please anwer always all questions which are written in bold font, One of them could be the key, we don't know which it is, sometimes it is one of the inconspicuous ones... You've probably already done some of the exercises, but do not answer them from memory though, look always fresh and really deep like a curious child :)

[Gwendy]

Could there be anything other than experience? Is a „non-experience“ possible?

No and no

Is it necesarry that an „I am“ exists?

No, it's not necessary.

Is it not enough that there is experience whithout an I?

Yes it's enough!

Is the word „I“ more than a label?

No it's just a label, a thought

Take a piece of paper and write the word „I“ on it. Becomes the paper to an „I“? The paper is real, you can see it, smell it, touch it, even hear and taste it. What about the „I“?

The paper doesn't become I. The I is not real. it's just ink on a paper.

Look, where is the „I“ that wants to let the thoughts be?

there is no I, I is a thought.

Is this more than a though?

No

Can you controll „your“ thoughts?

No

Can you choose to only think pleasant thoughts?

No

Think of a number between 1 and 100.. Do you coose a number, or bubbles it simply up?

It just comes up.

Is it necessecary that there is a thinker?

Obviously not because thoughts just appear

What if there are just thoughts and no thinker?

I see that. There are just thoughts

LOOK again if there is a thinker!

No just thoughts!

Must there be a „who“?Decisions happens, nobody decides...

No but it's funny that there is no "who" or "what". The mind tries to understand this question! I see that they're just thoughts.

Can you find an „I“ which is living „your“ life?

No I can't find it. There's just this silence

Please anwer always all questions which are written in bold font, One of them could be the key, we don't know which it is, sometimes it is one of the inconspicuous ones... You've probably already done some of the exercises, but do not answer them from memory though, look always fresh and really deep like a curious child :)

Thank you Barb for your patience, focus and vigilance :-)

[barb]

Great job :)


Let's see what the difference is between the direct experience and what is interpreted into it.


Place an apple on a white surface in front of you and examine:

Where does seeing take place? Outside or inside?
Where is the border between outside and inside?
Does seeing look more like 2D or 3D, if you only see and think nothing?
Look closely: do you actually see an "apple" apart from a color?
How do you know the name of the color? See how thoughts call what they have seen. Does what you see have a name when you see it or is there just seeing something?
Is there someone who sees and the seen, or is there just seeing? Is there an "instance" that perceives a perceived object or is there simply perceiving? What is the task of thoughts in this whole process of perception? Do you think the experience or is there only experiencing of experience?

Have fun while exploring curiously :)

[Gwendy]

Place an apple on a white surface in front of you and examine:

I took an orange because I didn't have an apple. Hope that's ok

Where does seeing take place? Outside or inside?

inside

Where is the border between outside and inside?

there is no border

Does seeing look more like 2D or 3D, if you only see and think nothing?

2D

Look closely: do you actually see an "apple" apart from a color?

No, I see a color and without the name of the color I have no idea what I'm seeing

How do you know the name of the color?

One of my teachers told me the name of the color. The name of the color is a thought.

See how thoughts call what they have seen.

Yes I see that

Does what you see have a name when you see it or is there just seeing something?

There's just seeiing and the thought "orange".

Is there someone who sees and the seen, or is there just seeing?

There's just seeing

Is there an "instance" that perceives a perceived object or is there simply perceiving?

There's simply perceiving

What is the task of thoughts in this whole process of perception?

I actually don't know what the task of thoughts is;
They create separateness
They make communication possible
survival, identity,understanding the world ....

Do you think the experience or is there only experiencing of experience?

There's only experiencing of experience

[barb]

Where does seeing take place? Outside or inside?

Inside

Inside from what? Are „you“ looking out of your head like out of a tent? Where are you?

Where is the border between outside and inside?

there is no border

If there is no border, what is inside and what is outside then?

They (thoughts) create separateness

Is a thought able to do/create something? Can a thought think another thought? Or do they appear linear, one after the other?
Is this „They create separateness“ true, is this more than thought content? Can you find separation in direct experience?


How are you in your process? Has anything changed since the beginning, or is everything still the same? For me most things sounds pretty clear what you write.

A few days ago you wrote:

I did everything I could do to wake up.
It's not going to happen and I realise that.

How do you think and expect that it would feel like to be awake? There is percieving, isn't it? There is seeing-hearing-touching-smelling-tasting-percieving of thought... How would this be possible if there were no awakeness?

[Gwendy]

I

nside from what?

Good question. Tricky! There is no inside or outside

Are „you“ looking out of your head like out of a tent?

No

Where are you?

I can't find me. Is it necessary? ;-)

If there is no border, what is inside and what is outside then?

There is no border. No inside, no outside

Is a thought able to do/create something?

Well,....
A thought is harmless but engaging in the thought creates thinking and thinking creates emotions and feelings.

Can a thought think another thought?

No

Or do they appear linear, one after the other?

They appear one after the other

Is this „They create separateness“ true,

No it's not true

is this more than thought content?

No

Can you find separation in direct experience?

No

How are you in your process?

I really don't know. Are you familiar with the work of Jed Mc Kenna? He's talking about the first step.
He says that if you don't take that first step, you will be in dreamland for the rest of your days.
I don't know if this is how he said it but this was what I understood.
I assume the first step is seeiing through the false self. (Exactly what I'm doing now with your fantastic help. )
The rest of the process would follow automatically untill the false self completely vanishes.
(While typing this I realise how aburd this sounds. There is no (false) self, there's no-one here. Just thoughts one after another....)

Has anything changed since the beginning, or is everything still the same?

Yes something has changed. Your questions are to the point, direct and cut through my BS.
I guess the search for something different than what's here is over. No more searching. There is vigilance though and constant checking.

For me most things sounds pretty clear what you write.

Yes it is clear. Thank you. The thought appears that I should embody this now ;-)

How do you think and expect that it would feel like to be awake?

I have no idea, really!

There is percieving, isn't it?

Yes there is.

There is seeing-hearing-touching-smelling-tasting-percieving of thought...

Yes absolutely

How would this be possible if there were no awakeness?

Yes awakeness is always here. :-)) What have I been doing and chasing all these years .....

THANK YOU
LOVE YOU