Seeking the end of "me"

[endofme]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I comprehend the idea of no-self. I am a lucid dreamer, and understand the idea that everything in the dream, including the dream character, the environment, ect., are not individual "things" but are all one. At this point I understand them to all be the dreamer, this "me" that I think I am in this waking reality. Now I'm finding out there's "me".

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance. New perspectives. I am still soaking up theory and ideas, and want to get a many perspectives as possible for there to be growth.
I realize that one of my biggest blocks is that I still identify with the personality. I want to know the truth. Or at least directly experience it. But who directly experiences it?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't have any expectations but I hope for someone to be patient and help me work through this. I'll probably have some silly questions and sound like a complete noob but I do want to learn. Some kind of tailored help dependant on where "I" am.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have dabbled in meditation, inquiry, spiritual autolysis. SA being my favorite method. I don't know if I have ADD, but meditation doesn't happen often as it should. I'm unfocused and jump around to different methods, preferably ones that don't require stillness. I love to do waking meditation, there is a 90 acre nature park that's practically in my back yard.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Jadzia]

Hi endofme,

I am Jadzia, if you like we can walk together for a while.

At this point I understand them to all be the dreamer, this "me" that I think I am in this waking reality. Now I'm finding out there's "me".

Could you explain what exactly you mean here? Use as many words as you like.

I want to know the truth. Or at least directly experience it. But who directly experiences it?

What is your answer right now?

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

Hi endofme,

I am Jadzia, if you like we can walk together for a while.

At this point I understand them to all be the dreamer, this "me" that I think I am in this waking reality. Now I'm finding out there's "me".

Could you explain what exactly you mean here? Use as many words as you like.

Hi, thank you Jadzia. I'll admit that explaining what I mean isn't always easy, but I'll do the best I can. I have some experience with lucid dreaming and exploring the dream world. This has been a fascination of mine for a long time. I probably shouldn't have answered with this, since I suppose it doesn't really imply that there's no self. But I do like what it does imply. It gives me a point of reference to understand the idea that "all is one". There's no separation between me, the computer I type on, the desk I am sitting at, and the words being typed. Its all one within consciousness. This can be a huge hurdle I bet for many to overcome, but my experiences with dreaming has opened the door for me on this. I can see that within the dream world, there is nothing appearing, or happening, that is separate from me, the dreamer. The dream characters that I talk to (fun experiment by the way). The scene and setting I find myself in. The objects that appear and feel extremely real. They are all appearing within consciousness, and I don't see a reason it is any different in this waking realm. For all I know, I could be a dream character in another's dream. In this sense, I can clearly see that there is no "me", but an extension of who or whatever dreamed of me. However, feeling this , actually feeling this in this "waking" reality is hard to imagine. Perhaps due to layers and layers of an ego which doesn't want to feel it. Because the ego wants to exist… to be special… and to be heard.

I also see that there is no self, because there can only be an idea of myself. I can't even sit here and describe to you what it means to be myself, because that description changes depending on the hour. Or minute. Or perhaps even down to the second. All there is is an idea of myself. Who I think I should be. Who others think I should be. The assumptions that I (and others) think I am. Yet I feel there must be something that remains constant. Behind all the assumptions and ideas. My best guess is that this is consciousness. The same consciousness that flows through all humans, animals and objects. I feel that we all share this pure, unadulterated consciousness and it is thoughts and ideas that morph it into something else, a self.

I want to know the truth. Or at least directly experience it. But who directly experiences it?

What is your answer right now?

Who directly experiences it? Well, if we follow what I said above, it is easy to say that consciousness directly experiences it. But then again, I could say that consciousness experiences it through me. But then that implies a self, just as I create a self to explore the dream world. Sure, I could possibly explore a dream without creating a dream body, or a self, and just explore as a field of consciousness, but then I wouldn't be able to interact. It would greatly impact the experience that can be had.

Thank you,
Justin

[endofme]

also I would like to point out, I meant to say "now I'm finding out there is no "me", in my original post. I bet that was confusing how I typed it..

[Jadzia]

also I would like to point out, I meant to say "now I'm finding out there is no "me", in my original post. I bet that was confusing how I typed it..

I was pretty sure there was ‘s life. Very interesting.

However, feeling this , actually feeling this in this "waking" reality is hard to imagine. Perhaps due to layers and layers of an ego which doesn't want to feel it. Because the ego wants to exist… to be special… and to be heard.

How is it known that there is a waking reality? That there is a waking and a non waking reality?

Where is an ego found? Really, where? In the body, head, left shoe? Where?
Does it exist like in it can be heard, seen, smelled, tasted, felt as in physical sensation? Or is it found as content/word/label in a thought?
Where is it found that an ego “ego wants to exist… to be special… and to be heard”?

I also see that there is no self, because there can only be an idea of myself. I can't even sit here and describe to you what it means to be myself, because that description changes depending on the hour. Or minute. Or perhaps even down to the second. All there is is an idea of myself. Who I think I should be. Who others think I should be. The assumptions that I (and others) think I am. Yet I feel there must be something that remains constant. Behind all the assumptions and ideas. My best guess is that this is consciousness. The same consciousness that flows through all humans, animals and objects. I feel that we all share this pure, unadulterated consciousness and it is thoughts and ideas that morph it into something else, a self.

Where is the idea of a myself found?
Remember: can it be heard, seen, smelled, tasted, felt as in physical sensation? Or is it found as content/word/label in a thought?
Do you find this Justin somewhere else than in thoughts?

Does what could be labeled consciousness flows through all? Flowing through you and me and Agnes and and…..
Wouldn’t that point to separation?
There is no separation, none at all.

Something morphs into a self? Is the self real, a separate entity?
Again where can this self only be found? Look.

Who directly experiences it? Well, if we follow what I said above, it is easy to say that consciousness directly experiences it. But then again, I could say that consciousness experiences it through me. But then that implies a self, just as I create a self to explore the dream world. Sure, I could possibly explore a dream without creating a dream body, or a self, and just explore as a field of consciousness, but then I wouldn't be able to interact. It would greatly impact the experience that can be had.

Same again if we say that consciousness experiences through a me, it would mean that there is separation again.
Though this is nice thought work – nice explanation.
It is time now to only lean on what you can experience.
How can consciousness be experienced? In senses? Label in thoughts?
Can it be experienced at all and if - by whom or what?

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

How is it known that there is a waking reality? That there is a waking and a non waking reality?

Where is an ego found? Really, where? In the body, head, left shoe? Where?
Does it exist like in it can be heard, seen, smelled, tasted, felt as in physical sensation? Or is it found as content/word/label in a thought?
Where is it found that an ego “ego wants to exist… to be special… and to be heard”?

I agree, it can't be known that there is a waking reality vs a non waking reality. In many ways they are very similar. I have all 5 (or 6) senses in either one. Objects feel very real in each one. The biggest difference I can find with a "waking" reality, is that things seem more constant. If I lay my keys down in a certain spot, they will mostly likely be there when I go to find them in the morning, whereas in a dream they may move or disappear completely, even as quickly as blinking my (dream) eyes. Other than that, they are both a stream of experiences and cannot really be considered different realities, from what I can gather.

No I can't find an ego, just as I can't find a self, beyond the idea of a self/ego. Neither are found inside this body, and I don't (100%) mistake them to be the body. As of right now, I consider this body to be no more than any other animal, that this idea of ego/self has piggybacked onto. Perhaps there is something special about a human's brain that is conducive to being hijacked by a self (so to speak) , which is why I don't find myself to be a dog, or a rabbit. In this sense, we consider humans to be an "intelligent species", and I couldn't begin to explain what that entails… All that being said, it is very hard for me to separate this feeling of me, from this body which people call "Justin." They feel one and the same, although as logic tells me, I can not find this ego or self within the body. Perhaps part of the problem is that people call the body "Justin" and they also call this idea of myself as "Justin".

It may help if I clarify what I mean by ego. I probably use the word incorrectly. I use it synomymously with self and persona. And no, I don't know what any of these words truly mean. It is hard to see past this idea that Justin "thinks." So if Justin thinks, by my reasoning, it only perpetuates the idea that there is a Justin. And this Justin wants to exist, for as long as it can.

Does what could be labeled consciousness flows through all? Flowing through you and me and Agnes and and…..
Wouldn’t that point to separation? 
There is no separation, none at all.

Something morphs into a self? Is the self real, a separate entity?
Again where can this self only be found? Look.

Well, I don't know if it truly flows through all, because I (Justin, or whatever) haven't experienced that. I have heard this, and I have come to an understanding of it through dream work, but I can't answer that question truthfully. Does that point to separation? Possibly. Or it points to non-separation, meaning that we are all cut from the same cloth. I don't see an issue with the paradox of being separate and non-separate. Just as a drop of water taken from the ocean is still a part of the ocean, before and after it returns to said ocean.

Same again if we say that consciousness experiences through a me, it would mean that there is separation again.
Though this is nice thought work – nice explanation.
It is time now to only lean on what you can experience.
How can consciousness be experienced? In senses? Label in thoughts?
Can it be experienced at all and if - by whom or what?

I don't know! Honestly I don't even know what consciousness is, but it’s the best explanation I can find to explain what is left when there is no self. How is it experienced? God, I just don't know. This is getting harder and harder…. We use our senses to experience things. Without touch, sight, feeling, taste, etc, I don't know how anything could be experienced, because there would be nothing to compare it to, or no frame of reference that there is anything at all. I have wondered that if a baby were born blind, deaf, and no other senses, would this baby even know its alive? Would there be any way for an ego or persona to sneak in? The baby would have no way to think, because it can't hear words to mimic or sights to visualize. I couldn't even tell you that this baby would have consciousness, even though it is not considered dead and the heart still beats.

[endofme]

All that being said, if we look at it in the context that all is one, including the objects, the space in between the objects, the experiences, and whatever else noun or verb I want to throw in, then yes, I do get how there is no separation. I just wanted to clarify this. I see separation and I see no- separation. But I don't know if I'm meant to experience no-separation, or if there is even an I who experiences anything.

[Jadzia]

Justin, be careful not too mix looking at what is, what can be found with known with thinking ABOUT too much. Ok? Two different things. If a sentence starts with ‘perhaps’ or ‘it could be’ it is thinking about.

Other than that, they are both a stream of experiences and cannot really be considered different realities, from what I can gather.

Right.
Stream of experience or just experience? Does it come from somewhere and disappears to somewhere or is it just it?

No I can't find an ego, just as I can't find a self, beyond the idea of a self/ego.

Yes, idea = thoughts, found in the content of thoughts.

They feel one and the same, although as logic tells me, I can not find this ego or self within the body. Perhaps part of the problem is that people call the body "Justin" and they also call this idea of myself as "Justin".

Logical thinking is thinking about and right now not helpful.
Can a me/ego/self be sensed or felt in the body? If not, well… it must be thought (Rule of thumb: if something can't be found with the senses it must be a thought!).

What is this “Justin”? Is it more than a name tag, a label?
Can this Justin be found other than in thought?
Is Justin really the thinker?
Can you choose only to think nice things?
Can you say what you will think the next second, before the thought appears?
Can you really can’t think something?

If not – is there a controller or thinker of thoughts at all?

Or it points to non-separation, meaning that we are all cut from the same cloth.

Are “we are all cut from the same cloth” or is there only the cloth, so to speak?

Without touch, sight, feeling, taste, etc, I don't know how anything could be experienced, because there would be nothing to compare it to, or no frame of reference that there is anything at all. I have wondered that if a baby were born blind, deaf, and no other senses, would this baby even know its alive? Would there be any way for an ego or persona to sneak in? The baby would have no way to think, because it can't hear words to mimic or sights to visualize. I couldn't even tell you that this baby would have consciousness, even though it is not considered dead and the heart still beats.

You know this is highly hypothetical, we couldn’t know what this baby would feel right?
But think of any toddler – do kids come with all the words/labels, frame for reference? No.
So how does a “for an ego or persona to sneak in”? Could words, learning have something to do with it?
And anyway does any baby think? Do you think? Are you the thinker of thoughts? Or do thoughts happen?

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

Stream of experience or just experience? Does it come from somewhere and disappears to somewhere or is it just it?

One unending experience. One moment I may be dreaming, and one moment I may be awake, but the experience doesn't stop between the two. I can't say as to whether my experience ends or takes a break when in deep sleep, as I have no memory of experiencing deep sleep. But for the most part, I can see how it is all one experience, not a stream of experiences.

What is this “Justin”? Is it more than a name tag, a label?

Justin is a label. A thought. An idea. I don't know if I should say "I am not Justin, Justin is an idea," or to say "Justin is an idea, and so am I. I don't exist."

Can this Justin be found other than in thought?

No, I can't say it can be.

Is Justin really the thinker?

If Justin is not the thinker, and thoughts only arise, why do they arise differently in this body than they do in the one next to it? This body has a brain, and processes thoughts in a unique matter compared to his friend next to him. If the thoughts are not Justin's, or the body's, then why do they seem to be unique?

Can you choose only to think nice things?

Who chooses? But essentially no, I can not choose to only think nice things. If that were the case, I'd be the happiest person in the world (presumably). I can choose to steer the thoughts into a positive spin when the negative ones are arising. But I don't know who chooses that. I only assume I can.

Can you say what you will think the next second, before the thought appears?

No, I can not do that.

Can you really can’t think something?

Absolutely not, from my experience with meditating and trying to quiet the mind. And yes I realize that I can not quiet the mind.

If not – is there a controller or thinker of thoughts at all?

I don't know. No, if I can determine that they do not come from the human brain itself.

[Jadzia]

One unending experience. One moment I may be dreaming, and one moment I may be awake, but the experience doesn't stop between the two.

How is it known that they are two, like in two different things?
If you just look, just actual experience, seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, physical sensation and the noticed thought – how is it known that one dreams or is awake?

Justin is a label. A thought. An idea. I don't know if I should say "I am not Justin, Justin is an idea," or to say "Justin is an idea, and so am I. I don't exist."

Justin is a label, yes.
Where does Justin exist?
Doesn’t he exist in the story thoughts weave?

If Justin is not the thinker, and thoughts only arise, why do they arise differently in this body than they do in the one next to it? This body has a brain, and processes thoughts in a unique matter compared to his friend next to him. If the thoughts are not Justin's, or the body's, then why do they seem to be unique?

If you just look, just actual experience, seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, physical sensation and the noticed thought – Can it be known that there is a brain?
How is it known that Justin's thoughts are unique? In a content of a thought perhaps?

I can choose to steer the thoughts into a positive spin when the negative ones are arising. But I don't know who chooses that. I only assume I can.

Yes, it is an assumption=thought.
There most certainly is a thought with the content “I just steered the thought into a positive spin”.
When looking – do you find any other proof?

Did you find a brain?
Are you the thinker of thoughts, or do you control them in any way?
Or is there a belief=thought that it is so?

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

How is it known that they are two, like in two different things? 
If you just look, just actual experience, seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, physical sensation and the noticed thought – how is it known that one dreams or is awake?

It is not known, using actual experience. The senses appear to be the same.

If you just look, just actual experience, seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, physical sensation and the noticed thought – Can it be known that there is a brain?

As you described, the brain can not be found this way. I have also never seen my eyeballs, besides what is reflected back at me in the mirror. Others tell me they are there, though.

How is it known that Justin's thoughts are unique?

It is unknown. However, it is easy to see that I have certain preferences as compared to my friend, who has other preferences. How is this not unique thought, or a unique way of interpreting thoughts? Is this what you mean by a content of thought?

Yes, it is an assumption=thought.
There most certainly is a thought with the content “I just steered the thought into a positive spin”.
When looking – do you find any other proof?

No, no other proof is found.

Did you find a brain? Are you the thinker of thoughts, or do you control them in any way?
Or is there a belief=thought that it is so?

I did not find a brain. There is a deep rooted belief that I am the thinker of thoughts, and that I can control them. I don't know how to move past that.

[Jadzia]

How is it known that they are two, like in two different things?
If you just look, just actual experience, seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, physical sensation and the noticed thought – how is it known that one dreams or is awake?
It is not known, using actual experience. The senses appear to be the same.

What does this say about dreaming and waking – two different things or one with two different labels?

As you described, the brain can not be found this way. I have also never seen my eyeballs, besides what is reflected back at me in the mirror. Others tell me they are there, though.

What exactly is reflected in the mirror?
Can really a me be seen?
Is it a me reflected back from a mirror or is it colour form, that is labeled ‘me’?

It is unknown. However, it is easy to see that I have certain preferences as compared to my friend, who has other preferences. How is this not unique thought, or a unique way of interpreting thoughts? Is this what you mean by a content of thought?

You can notice a thought in AE, it is there. This thought has a content, words, a story onboard.
The only way known that Justin’s thoughts are unique are by content of thought, right?
And yes, there seem to be different characters with different upbringing, different use of language.

There is a deep rooted belief that I am the thinker of thoughts, and that I can control them. I don't know how to move past that.

This belief together with the beliefs of being the doer, chooser and controller of life are the strongest beliefs connected to the belief in the different self. We will tackle each of them.

Have a closer look at thoughts. Observe them for about 15 minutes with kindness. Avoid being drawn into the story. Afterwards answer the questions.

Where do thoughts come from and go to?
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
What do me-thoughts refer to? To a me or to another thought?
Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?
Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?
The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

Please answer each question individually.

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

What does this say about dreaming and waking – two different things or one with two different labels?

it is one with two labels. Awake and dreaming. The direct experience is identical between the two labels.

What exactly is reflected in the mirror?

There appear to be colors and shapes, at the basic descriptions. There appears what is labeled this body, but I can see how this is only a label, and I don't really know what is reflected in the mirror.

Can really a me be seen?

A me cannot be seen, as a me is an idea of who I am. There is no physical representation of a "me" to be reflected.

Is it a me reflected back from a mirror or is it colour form, that is labeled ‘me’?

It is a color form. Even labeling it a body instead of labeling it a me, is merely a label, and as I said, dropping any labels, I really don't know what is reflected, or even what reflection is.

Where do thoughts come from and go to?

While observing, thoughts seemed to come out of nowhere. They also seem to disappear into nowhere, as they are very short lived, and there was always a new one behind it.

Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?

This can not be done. They sometimes seem to appear at random, but mostly as a continuation of a previous thought, mostly likely perpetuating the story that is being played out.

What do me-thoughts refer to? To a me or to another thought?

Me-thoughts refer to the idea of me. I assume they perpetuate the idea of me.

Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

I don't know. They did not appear to experience or interact with each other. But it is tricky when there is a train of thoughts that seemingly build upon the last.

Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

Hmm. I would say they feed each other, at least. For example, there may be a sensation, which leads to a thought about the sensation, which may lead to another sensation. Let me work this out: a sensation pretty much is a thought. A signal to the brain, from the location of which the sensation originates in this supposed body. Without the thought of the sensation, there would not be a sensation. But there can be thoughts without sensations. So I can't tell if they are two types of thoughts or just thoughts.

The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity

It definitely seems and feels very continuous. I have pondered the possibility if there were pot-holes in the continuity, if they get somehow auto-corrected and paved over by thoughts, and by usage of false memory implanted by thought, exactly how it happens for me in what I call dreaming, when these errors and glitches are more noticeable upon reflection after returning to whatever experience I call "awake". Same experience, yes, but if feels different, so it is hard not to label the two based upon the feeling of being awake. (feeling being a thought, I assume)

Is it really continuous?

As I said, it feels this way. But I don't 100% trust my judgement on this, not even direct experience of it. I am well aware of how manipulative thought and memory is.

Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

I see what you are saying. My curiosity is what causes thoughts to seem to continue or build upon a previous thought, therefore perpetuating a story? Also, why do they arise nonstop? what powers the arising of thoughts? If thoughts arise separately, there must be some kind of interaction so that a number of consecutive thoughts can evolve an idea. I can see that one continuous story is an idea.

Thank you,
Justin

[Jadzia]

it is one with two labels. Awake and dreaming. The direct experience is identical between the two labels.

One experience two labels. Yes.
What does this tell you about no separate self right now?

It is a color form. Even labeling it a body instead of labeling it a me, is merely a label, and as I said, dropping any labels, I really don't know what is reflected, or even what reflection is.

Yes. Even colour/form is a label – but alas we use words to communicate.
Ponder about this – what if all words are labels? Just descriptions but not the real thing?

Thoughts come and go, yes. So what do you do with it? Finding this what does that tell you about the thinker?

Me-thoughts refer to the idea of me. I assume they perpetuate the idea of me.

What is this “idea of me”? A thought? Several thougths?

I don't know. They did not appear to experience or interact with each other. But it is tricky when there is a train of thoughts that seemingly build upon the last.

How is it known that they build upon the last then?

Hmm. I would say they feed each other, at least. For example, there may be a sensation, which leads to a thought about the sensation, which may lead to another sensation. Let me work this out: a sensation pretty much is a thought. A signal to the brain, from the location of which the sensation originates in this supposed body. Without the thought of the sensation, there would not be a sensation. But there can be thoughts without sensations. So I can't tell if they are two types of thoughts or just thoughts.

How is the connection known – can it be known that “they feed each other”?

Ok, what exactly is a sensation?
What about a physical sensation? Is it there or not in actual experience?
Can there be something like a raw experience?
If yes, what is added to it in light speed?

I have pondered the possibility if there were pot-holes in the continuity, if they get somehow auto-corrected and paved over by thoughts, and by usage of false memory implanted by thought, exactly how it happens for me in what I call dreaming, when these errors and glitches are more noticeable upon reflection after returning to whatever experience I call "awake".

Watch thoughts like a hawk.
It seems like there is a continuity, at least some thoughts ‘tell’ so, but is it really?

My curiosity is what causes thoughts to seem to continue or build upon a previous thought, therefore perpetuating a story? Also, why do they arise nonstop? what powers the arising of thoughts? If thoughts arise separately, there must be some kind of interaction so that a number of consecutive thoughts can evolve an idea. I can see that one continuous story is an idea.

Go on exploring.
Thoughts always offer explanations, everything can be explained if you are ready to belief thoughts. Everything has a logical explanation, or is it only a guess by thought?

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

Jadzia,
I would like to take a day to study the nature of thoughts before replying

Thank you,
Justin