I am...

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Casper
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I am...

Postby Casper » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:57 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
About 4 years ago, I had a realisation that the inside and the outside world is not separate. The "mind" creates the "self" and that resulting in two sides. I could see that thoughts produce the entity that is illusionary and understood the meaning of meditation. Since then many things changed.

What are you looking for at LU?
Joining a community, talking through and deepening the knowing of knowing. I find it a lonely road and would like to meet people who have had a similar experience and understand it more than "me". ...

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Maybe there is no "next level" but if yes I would like to discover with someone who is on this path for a longer time. I know it is a pattern of thinking to look for the next thing, it is not that. I let my curiosity guide anyway I find it amazing to land here.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The most important aspect of life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:09 pm

Hi Csaba,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like. If so, please read the following and let me know that you understand the disclaimers, guidelines, etc.

Loving this answer:
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The most important aspect of life.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

Casper
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am

Re: I am...

Postby Casper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:36 pm

Hi Stacy, thank you for your kindness in answering to this post. Looking forward to your guidance. I can confirm that I read and understood the Disclaimer and the FAQ.
How will life change?
I don't know how life will change I only know that it will change, it is in constant motion.
How will you change?
I don't know again, I have no expectation to change, the question suggests that I will change. My understanding is that I only know what my experience is. I don't know the future and the how is subject matter, or need a point of view: good or bad, better or worse..."I" is universal, experiences, appearances change.
What will be different?
That I can talk, chat and hopefully ask questions and making sure that there are no residues left.
What is missing?
Isn't this question what the famous Zen master used to ask? I could leave it empty, but I would like to talk.

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:44 pm

Hi ... is Csaba what you would like for me to call you?

The first questions are to check and see what expectations you may have. People have many different ideas about what seeing no-self is like. Expectations can get in the way of being open to actually LOOKING and SEEING. So we check.

Here is the next question:

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That self is entirely made up, a story, fictional?

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

Casper
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am

Re: I am...

Postby Casper » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:01 am

Hi Stacy,

Csaba is my name, but you can call me however you like or wish. When I signed up for "the Gate" I promised myself that I will be 100% honest. My expectation is to deepening my knowledge and discovering other ways to explain it,/ maybe gaining some friends/.
So if I read that sentence :
Firstly I feel yes its true,
Secondly, the meaning of "self" raise some questions;
Thirdly how could you show me that "self" is made up?

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:41 am

Good morning, Csaba

Thank you. That question is for checking for any fears that you may have about seeing no self. Sounds like you're clear at the moment. Fears and expectations can get in the way, so we check those first. If anything comes up as we go, we will address it at that time.

100% honesty is great. On the new friends part, that can happen afterwards once you join any of the Facebook groups that you might be interested in, starting with the Aftercare group. The groups are optional, but if you want to meet people that have seen no self, that is one way to do it.

So here is an exercise or example about how we want you to answer the questions in each exercise from now on.

Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

Casper
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am

Re: I am...

Postby Casper » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:38 pm

Hi Stacy,
I like the name Anastasia it is has a beautiful grace. Looking forward to joining the group, when it is the right time for it. The example is clear and I understood. By the way, there are no colour socks/checked/. We can move forward.

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:23 pm

Thank you & thank you, Csaba,

No socks! So true.

Okay, based on the understanding seen in your posts, jumping to a longer exercise. If need be, can give some pieces that lead up to it, but thinking says this is understood:

Let's do an exercise to help distinguish between what is called "story" or "content" and the simple fact of Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE).

DE is color, sound, sensation, smell, taste and the fact of thought arising (but not the content of that thought or the story that thought tells.) Those 6 things - no more.

If you have a "real" apple then you can use that for this exercise.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When "looking at an apple," there's color; a thought saying "apple;" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, the story, what they describe?

Actual Experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something - because that is only more thought. Actual Experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of a thought arising.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple?"

Can "apple" be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in Actual Experience (AE.)

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled "apple" is known.
Color labeled "apple" is known.
Sensation labeled "apple" is known (when apple is touched).
Smell labelled "apple’ is known.
Thought about/of an "apple" is known.

However, is an apple actually known?

Please report what is found.


Loving this!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

Casper
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am

Re: I am...

Postby Casper » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:58 pm

Dear Anastasia
I intended a little joke with the socks as I don't wear much colourful stuff especially colour socks./.checked again/

Love the apple, great example, the apple is what reminded Newton to gravity, it is healthy and caused Eva and Adam to move. The mythical fruit of knowledge. Love this example. Please forgive me for this remarks but it resonates with me.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT "apple?"
It is a picture on the screen what awakes a thought about an apple, but it is not a real apple.
Can "apple" be found in actual experience?
Well in this instance there is the only visual experience for the apple, the actual experience is that it is not an apple.
However, is an apple actually known?
The simple answer would be if it is eaten or when I would have a complete sensory experience but I find it interesting that there are the five senses plus the thought about it. My very fist direct experience/some time ago/ was that the mind creates an apple or duplicates it.

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:12 pm

Hi Csaba!
I intended a little joke with the socks as I don't wear much colourful stuff especially colour socks./.checked again/

Love the apple, great example, the apple is what reminded Newton to gravity, it is healthy and caused Eva and Adam to move. The mythical fruit of knowledge. Love this example. Please forgive me for this remarks but it resonates with me.
Yes, that was funny. Either way there are no socks. If you saw "The Matrix," it is like "no spoon."

Yes, it's fun when things resonate. Mostly, we'll stick to the exercises here. We can chat afterwards as much as you like. There are Facebook groups, etc. for that.
It is a picture on the screen what awakes a thought about an apple, but it is not a real apple.
Yes, no real apple. Just a thought about "apple."
Well in this instance there is the only visual experience for the apple, the actual experience is that it is not an apple.
If you had an apple in your hand - would it be different? Do you have an apple or any food or fruit you can try this with, please? I think it would help.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

Casper
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am

Re: I am...

Postby Casper » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:32 pm

Hi Anastasia
I find that in direct experience there is only the thought of it. If I remove the learned knowledge, i always end up just with the thought of it.

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:51 pm

Hi, yes, good.

Here is another to try ...

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.

Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct experience) and write back with at least a couple of lists like the one above in the example.


I suspect this will be easy for you.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

Casper
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am

Re: I am...

Postby Casper » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:50 pm

Dear Anastacia

Here is a list:
the sound of the pen-sound,
smooth paper- touch,
the smell of the page of the notebook-smell,
distant speech-sound,
yellow light-vision,
spongy chair- sensation,
fresh, brisk air-smell-sensation,
the sweet smell of fallen leaves-smell,
dark green turf, ultramarine sky - vision,
crisp wind on the cheekbone-sensation,
warm pocket-sensation,
orange, dark yellow, grey-brown leaves-vision,
sound of my step-sound,
computer noise -sound
the sweet taste of chocolate - taste,

Would be this enough?

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:53 pm

Hi Csaba,

Yes, that is plenty.

Do you write poetry? Your writing is very pretty. I'm going to give you a couple more exercises; however, it's looking like you don't need very much. I'm just doing this to check a couple of things.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different hought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought."


Love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: I am...

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:55 pm

Hi again!

I just noticed something about your list. There were not any places where you labeled thoughts.

Look at the original exercise and see if you can find some thoughts and distinguish content of thought from thought arising. Do this before doing the new exercise, please? My oversight.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


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