Grace

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CarterGrace
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Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:41 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That there is only flow. seeing but no seen or seer, doing but no doer or done to, etc.
Done 30 years of seeking and today had the realization that "i" have no control over any action -- all action just flows by the mystery of Grace.

What are you looking for at LU?
I” am hoping to clear and deepen and live from this realization (with a little help from my LU friends). When "I" look, I cant find an I, but I need to deepen the lived experience.
Also interested in the community and possibly becoming a guide myself.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I've worked through almost all the guided conversations in Gateless Gate, so would expect to have the same experience of clear and loving guidance -- with the Zen stick applied as needed. I would expect my guide to be pretty realized.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
GRACE: 40 years ago, when I had 8 months sobriety in AA, I was feeling very virtuous and good about myself that I had done all the right things (steps, sponsoring, group, service) -- I realized I had no idea WHY I had been willing to do a complete reversal from being an agnostic selfish whining, rebellious drunk – to being willing to follow the suggested directions of AA and my sponsor. That shift in willingness, I realized is what was called the mystery of God’s Grace.
Today, after 30 years of spiritual exploration (AA, ACIM, fire-walking, est, shamanism, NDE’s, past lives, channeling, India, Buddhism, Meditation Instructor, Spiritual Inquiry Guide, Fred Davis, Scott Kiloby, Headless Way, Gangaji, Rupert Spira, Finders Course, etc. – and now Liberation Unleashed), --- I had the realization that “I” have no “control” over anything -- that the typing, breathing, teaching, loving – is not controlled at all by “me- the character Carter” but just flows from the mystery of Grace.
“I” am hoping to deepen and live from this realization – with a little help from my LU friends.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Jadzia
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Re: Grace

Postby Jadzia » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:34 pm

Hi CarterGrace,

I am Jadzia and if you like we can walk the last steps together and check where there might be sticky points or questions.
Done 30 years of seeking and today had the realization that "i" have no control over any action -- all action just flows by the mystery of Grace.
When "I" look, I cant find an I,…
What does this feel like?

What is you life like right now?
You had to wait quite a while for a guide, did you find any changes in yourself, your life, your relationships lately?

Love,
Jadzia

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CarterGrace
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Re: Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:30 am

Hi Jadzia, Thank you so much for responding. I’m slightly embarrassed by the CarterGrace name. I had just had the realization/experience that life just flows by – there is no doer – life just happens by grace.
Sadly like many of my “realizations” – it is like a child searching under the bed and finding no boogeyman. But then when he gets back in bed and turns out the light – the “sense” of the boogeyman comes back. So then he checks again. No boogeyman. But then back in bed …..

While I have waited, I have read thru almost all writing and awakening stories in “Liberation Unleashed” and the “Gateless Gate”. It is clear that “I” is just a thought – like the words/image “pink elephant” that arises in consciousness. And yet I still feel like a “doer” – even though as I say these words I grin at the silliness of a thought being a doer.

Round and round “I” go.

Any help you can give to get me off this hamster wheel will be treasured.
With much love, just plain Carter.

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Jadzia
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Re: Grace

Postby Jadzia » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:21 am

Hi Carter,

A bit of hamster wheel can happen, we call it yo yo-ing. It takes a while of looking again and again and allowing the ‘old New’ to settle, it will need more looking under the bed. All is well. ;-)

I guess you looked everywhere and you can only find the ‘I’ in thoughts. What about Carter and Carters story?

Are you the thinker of the thoughts or not?

With being the doer or not – simply go on observing in a gentle and friendly way.
When does the thought appear ‘claiming’ to have started the action, before the action, during or afterwards?

What about this question?
Did you find any changes in yourself, your life, your relationships lately?
If you don’t have an answer right now to this, ok, just keep your eyes open.

Ah, and stop reading about experiences of others now – now it is only about ‘your own’ experience.

Love,
Jadzia

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CarterGrace
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Re: Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:15 pm

Thanks Jadzia for your support.

--------I guess you looked everywhere and you can only find the ‘I’ in thoughts. What about Carter and Carters story?

Carter’s story is clearly just another thought/memory arising. (But I still, sometimes, get trapped into believing in it and forget there is no “I”.)

--------Are you the thinker of the thoughts or not?

Thoughts just bubble up – like bubbles in a soda bottle.

------With being the doer or not – simply go on observing in a gentle and friendly way.
------When does the thought appear ‘claiming’ to have started the action, before the action, during or afterwards?

Sometimes the thought bubbles up “Do that!” and the action occurs, and then the thought comes “Look what I did.”
Sometimes there is simply action followed by the “look what I did” thought.

------What about this question? Did you find any changes in yourself, your life, your relationships lately?
------If you don’t have an answer right now to this, ok, just keep your eyes open.

Lately, “I” have been inspired to drop resistance and say “yes!” to my wife (and feel a sense of joy about saying yes). This seems to be expanding into less resistance and more “yes!” to any life events. Fun.

------Ah, and stop reading about experiences of others now – now it is only about ‘your own’ experience.

OK, but I may sneak in a glimpse at Ilona’s last self reflection instructions in Liberation Unleashed before I stop reading.

With much love and appreciation, Carter

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Jadzia
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Re: Grace

Postby Jadzia » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:36 am

Carter’s story is clearly just another thought/memory arising. (But I still, sometimes, get trapped into believing in it and forget there is no “I”.)
Yes, still there can be warm and kind feelings for Carter, same as you like and enjoy watching a character in a series you came to like more and more whith each episode.
Now tell me: Who or what is trapped into believing the story and forgets about the no I??
Thoughts just bubble up – like bubbles in a soda bottle.
Right. Nice picture.
Sometimes the thought bubbles up “Do that!” and the action occurs, and then the thought comes “Look what I did.”
Sometimes there is simply action followed by the “look what I did” thought.
Thoughts are swift, very swift – look very careful.
For thoughts to instigate action shouldn’t a “Do this or that!” be always followed? Is a command by thoughts always followed by action?
You are laying in bed in the morning and the thought “Get up” bubbles up – does the body always rise?
“I should go to bed now – it is already late.” – is something like that always followed?
Lately, “I” have been inspired to drop resistance and say “yes!” to my wife (and feel a sense of joy about saying yes). This seems to be expanding into less resistance and more “yes!” to any life events. Fun.
Embracing life as it is, beautiful.

You might like to try the quoting function. You highlight a text and then press the quote button on top of the box.

Love,
Jadzia

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CarterGrace
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Re: Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:40 am

Dear Jadzia. Your question . “Who or what is trapped into believing the story and forgets about the no I?” Has had me looking and inquiring all day. The best answer is perhaps a sort of stream of consciousness as I did a fast walk tonight along the Strand in Manhattan Beach.

Noticing the ten million-dollar mansions, the heavy surf, and the scattering of walkers, lovers, and dogs . Remembering that I wanted to connect or be spacious awareness. Dropping thought and expanding to experience that spacious sense. Letting all of the sense experience Flow by. Letting thoughts bubble up. Then noticing the thought that I was letting thoughts just bubble up while being in spacious awareness. Then losing the sense of flowing awareness as I contracted into thinking about this whole process and about your assignment, and wondering if I could both be focused on thoughts or specific Sensations while at the same time being in flow.

Then noticing that “I” was totally caught up in thought. Been wondering who this I was that was caught up in thought. Then realizing that the thoughts just bubbled up based on causes and conditions in a mechanical way. Then realizing that I had lost all sense of spacious awareness or the softness of the air or the sounds of the surf or the movement of my body.

Then dropping thought and sensing into aware flow. Then noticing a thought, and then following that thought with another thought – and another …

And so it goes. Round and round the hampster wheel.

Tomorrow morning I will lead people in a meditation where I instruct them that when they are triggered to drop thought and bring their attention into the body and then into the loving awareness deep within. And then act from that place of (God’s) loving awareness.

But the hamster wheel for "me" seems just start up again every time "I" stop it. So the answer to your question -- “Who or what is trapped into believing the story and forgets about the no I?” is nobody or nothing -- but it just happens -- along with a sense of frustration, irritation and even hopelessness. Round and round it goes.

Your question “Is a command by thoughts always followed by action?” The answer as you demonstrated is obviously no.

Finally, I haven't used the quoting function, because I've composed these as a word doc and then copied to the blog.

Thanks again. I hope you have the patience to Stay With Me. With great love and appreciation, Carter.

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Jadzia
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Re: Grace

Postby Jadzia » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:01 am

Who or what is trapped into believing the story and forgets about the no I?
Right, no one is.
But…… thoughts content tell a whole story about it……
And right a thought command isn’t always followed by action. Quite often the thought comes with, or a split second after action started.
This is easy to be seen when one looks – so just do it for a while longer.

Will thoughts stop flowing so not to get into the way of what we for the sake of understanding might call pure Awareness?
Does it make sense to avoid thought by focusing somewhere else or might it make more sense to simply embrace it as part of This?

Listen to this game for a while. For some time with commentary turned on and then without it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

With commentary on you will notice that the commentary offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

Commentary off. Same action happens.

Does the commentary influence the game in any way?
Does it lessen or strengthen anything in the way the game runs?
How about Carters thought commentary?


Love,
Jadzia

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CarterGrace
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Re: Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:53 am

Will thoughts stop flowing so not to get into the way of what we for the sake of understanding might call pure Awareness?
No they will not. Not my experience. [But like bubles in boiling water, they seem to get fewer if the heat is turned down. smile). ]
Does it make sense to avoid thought by focusing somewhere else or might it make more sense to simply embrace it as part of This?
Gee -- I know deeply to embrace and not to resist, yet here I am avoiding again!
How about Carters thought commentary?
Blah, blah, blah -- everywhere that Carter goes, the story teller, comentater, critic-mom-dad follows.
" Watch! I-Carter will type a sentence, Wow! carter is actually typing. Wow! Carter typed the sentence. Oops, Carter mistyped the sentence - screwed up again. "

So "I " guess, "I" just listen or not as the action, the game, flows by.
In fact, the commentary seems to be just part of the flow of life.
And if "I" notice I'm totally caught up in the commentary ...... just notice (witness?) that that is what is happening and not try to fix/change it. No failing self -- Just some flotsam in the river of life. [Maybe even feel good that it was noticed.]

Enough for now. Thanks Jadzia for hanging in there. Much love and appreciation, Carter.

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Jadzia
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Re: Grace

Postby Jadzia » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:20 am

Gee -- I know deeply to embrace and not to resist, yet here I am avoiding again!
All is well. Thoughts telling a story of avoiding something or not, which person is doing it? Of the fictious person Carter?
So "I " guess, "I" just listen or not as the action, the game, flows by.
In fact, the commentary seems to be just part of the flow of life.
And if "I" notice I'm totally caught up in the commentary ...... just notice (witness?) that that is what is happening and not try to fix/change it. No failing self -- Just some flotsam in the river of life. [Maybe even feel good that it was noticed.]
Yes, the commentary is part of life, thoughts happening.
Good or no good, what is saying that something is good or not?

Thoughts give the impression with their commentary as if they would have a connection to life and would influence it.
Is this so?
This commentary seems to go on and on and one thought content seems to connect/build on the other thought content, it seems as if there would be a continuity.
Does one thought know of the other?
Can thought know of anything?

Enjoy observing for a while how thought creates the seemingly seamless story of Carter, Carter the doer, Carter the thinker, Carter the chooser and so on. Isn't it interesting once one sees how it is done?

Love,
Jadzia

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CarterGrace
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Re: Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:34 am

----All is well. Thoughts telling a story of avoiding something or not, which person is doing it? Of the fictious person Carter?
So once again, there is no “I” – just a thought – which can not act, avoid or think!
----Yes, the commentary is part of life, thoughts happening.
Good or no good, what is saying that something is good or not?
----Thoughts give the impression with their commentary as if they would have a connection to life and would influence it.
Is this so?
Thoughts are generated by the fictitious character Carter that are consistent with the character – maintaining the illusion of a “real” person. A bit like a swirling whirpool of water.
----Does one thought know of the other?
----Can thought know of anything?
A thought just arises and knows nothing.
----Enjoy observing for a while how thought creates the seemingly seamless story of Carter, Carter the doer, Carter the thinker, Carter the chooser and so on. Isn't it interesting once one sees how it is done?
There is a beautiful consistency in the Carter-thoughts that arise –- weaving a mesmerizing story of commentary, decisions and calls to action. They fit together as seamlessly as movements of the Carter-body as it navigates going down stairs or washing dishes. They are as mesmerizing (but longer lived) as the rippling, curling, breaking waves that the Carter-body surfed recently.

And one of those Carter-thoughts that arises is "I'm not getting this yet." Which, of course, is consistent with the Carter-character. The chain seems to be disrupted some by a giggle at the ridiculousness of it all.

That is all for now. Much love, Carter-ness.

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Jadzia
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Re: Grace

Postby Jadzia » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:49 am

So once again, there is no “I” – just a thought – which can not act, avoid or think!
The whole story is simply thought, it helps to remind oneself of it now and again, especially when the repetitive stories about the character is repeated again and again.
It is good to observe the story in a gently and loving way.
There is a beautiful consistency in the Carter-thoughts that arise –- weaving a mesmerizing story of commentary, decisions and calls to action. They fit together as seamlessly as movements of the Carter-body as it navigates going down stairs or washing dishes. They are as mesmerizing (but longer lived) as the rippling, curling, breaking waves that the Carter-body surfed recently.
Yeah, it is well done.
Have a close look, this story only seems to be seamless, it isn’t.
Look out for wrong labeling, well worn thoughts which appear at the wrong moment, comments which don’t make sense. When they appear they are immediately corrected so this isn’t easy to spot – but trying to find them is a nice past time which is fun.
Thoughts are generated by the fictitious character Carter that are consistent with the character – maintaining the illusion of a “real” person. A bit like a swirling whirpool of water.
Just for clarification, how can a fiction generate something?
And as in the last paragraph, are these thoughts always consistent with the Carter persona or are there other ‘strange’ thoughts appearing which are quickly followed by another thought?
And one of those Carter-thoughts that arises is "I'm not getting this yet.”
Oh yes, isn’t it lovely? Thoughts “sticking” to the story? Repeating the same again and again.
Isn’t it a relief that there is no Carter who could get it?

How often, if at all do you find a genuinly fresh thought, one which never appeared before?

Love,
Jadzia

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CarterGrace
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Re: Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:13 am

And as in the last paragraph, are these thoughts always consistent with the Carter persona or are there other ‘strange’ thoughts appearing which are quickly followed by another thought?

----And one of those Carter-thoughts that arises is "I'm not getting this yet.”

Oh yes, isn’t it lovely? Thoughts “sticking” to the story? Repeating the same again and again.
Isn’t it a relief that there is no Carter who could get it?

How often, if at all do you find a genuinely fresh thought, one which never appeared before?
Hi Jadzia -- Watching thoughts. I want to continue watching them for another day or so.

Yes, there are sometimes weird thoughts -- like maybe I will do something not in character -- wear a loud shirt -- eat a strange meal -- but usually they are quickly corrected.

And sometimes there are fresh thoughts -- more often in meditation or a quiet mind -- that seem to come from a deeper source -- that seem "right" somehow -- even though there might be resistance thoughts.

One of those fresh thoughts arising is that ---- it is time to stop agreeing with thoughts like "I am not awake" or "Yes there is no I, but I usually act as if there is" or "Pretty soon, I will drop the sense of personal self" ----- and start just letting life flow by -- "Loving what is" as Byron Katie said -- including in the "what is" not only external events but (negative) thoughts and emotions.

Sending out a big surge of joyous love to you and the universe. Thanks again, Carter.

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Jadzia
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Re: Grace

Postby Jadzia » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:59 am

Yes, there are sometimes weird thoughts -- like maybe I will do something not in character -- wear a loud shirt -- eat a strange meal -- but usually they are quickly corrected.
It is good to see, isn't it, the way thoughts seem to keep the character in certain perimeters, in a certain way of acting - in some way contained.
One of those fresh thoughts arising is that ---- it is time to stop agreeing with thoughts like "I am not awake" or "Yes there is no I, but I usually act as if there is" or "Pretty soon, I will drop the sense of personal self" ----- and start just letting life flow by -- "Loving what is" as Byron Katie said -- including in the "what is" not only external events but (negative) thoughts and emotions.
Who or what would agree with thoughts? There is neiter agreeing or disagreeing, nor believing in or disbelieving....they just appear and disappear.

Loving what is - is a good working concept.

Take your time in observing thoughts and share what you find.

Love,m
Jadzia

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CarterGrace
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Re: Grace

Postby CarterGrace » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:55 am

Hi Jadzia -- Sorry for the delay, but I sort of wanted to take a breather and just watch thoughts as you suggested.

Exploring what it is like to actually live from "no-self" or flow. During quiet time it is easy to go there -- to spacious awareness or flow. More difficult when with others.

Wondering about pain. Pain is an arising sensation in flow/awareness. Then a thought arises "I don't like this" --- followed by a strong negative emotion/sensation. Followed by a thought "I need to do something about this pain . NOW!".

It is seen that they are all arising thoughts -- but the pain seems to be happening to ME-CARTER!

Mostly this pain stuff is theoretical (well not if it is a bad itch). But my wife is in severe chronic pain -- and that kind of pain really scares me sometimes. But then I wonder if maybe I can love all of it -- the experiences, the thoughts, the emotions.

Your reaction to this would be appreciated.
Much love and a bunch of joy, Carter.


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