Knowing what I see

[vivslack]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Guiding people to see through the illusions mind creates about an I, self, controlling and doing entity that can't be found in direct experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
People to talk to when I get stuck and can't see my blindspots, to ask fresh questions that I can look for in my direct experience. Encouragement and support to keep going, to look into my fears and questions more closely.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Some new pointers when stuck and some engagement would be gratefully received. Sometimes I get stuck in a circle and would love help to shift, or to look differently. I've find the stories and questions in the book helpful. My current questions are around decisions, control, practice, karma etc - will I stop opening/ growing?

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been practicing meditation & mindfulness for around 4 years, involved in NVC & studying Buddhism.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[vivslack]

I've been looking each time the right 'i' or 'mine' comes up, and there's no self begins the thought, no thinker. Seeing, hearing, moving, thinking all happen without any self controlling it. Sometimes the thought I still comes, but now there's awareness is only a thought.

Today there was still a sense of 'me seeking' something, even though when I look there's no one there to do any seeking, no me to improve. Yet still a kind of looking, checking. I asked what was seeking what, and there was nothing but a sense of tightening in my belly and a thought. Perhaps over time that will come up less, perhaps not.

One thing I notice is it seems that there's one flow of life, but I still see separate objects that I seem to have to use my mind to look beyond. Maybe there still is looking needed here?

[vivslack]

Sorry for some typos...
It should start 'I've been looking each time the thought I or me comes up, and there's no self thinking the thought...'

[Luisa]

Hi vivslack,

My name is Luisa, I can accompany you in this investigation, if you like.

Looking forward to your response,

[vivslack]

Hi Luisa. That's very kind.

Things have moved on in ways since posting, and it would be lovely to have your support questions come up.

At the moment, when I'm present & peaceful there are just sensations & thinking arising and passing. Sometimes theres a thought 'i' or 'mine' which is noticed and when I look it falls away. When I'm busy or triggered that thought can be a bit sticker, but it's still a thought, & is not so personal any more.

When I look, life is happening, as flow, without a 'me' controlling it. The feeling of being separate seems to be based on only this mind experiencing this particular sequence of things, knowing no one else can experience it - but looking at that, it's a unique experience, rather than 'separate'. I see there's lots of interactions, things that affect experience, so it's not separate. (just noticed 'I see', but not editing)

I think I was waiting to 'see' ask life as flow and interconnected physically or something, which now seems ridiculous, eyes and brain won't suddenly physically see energy instead of things. Now there's acceptance that this new way of seeing is more subtle. Things are the same but different.

No need to reply to all of this, just if there's anything that stands out that you want to raise as a qn or feedback.

Many thanks.

[Luisa]

Excellent observations!

You wrote:

When I look, life is happening, as flow, without a 'me' controlling it.

Is there really a doing of looking? Or just thought suggesting: "'Doing the looking' now happens and as a result of that the sense of a "me" controlling life vanished"?

The feeling of being separate seems to be based on only this mind experiencing this particular sequence of things, knowing no one else can experience it - but looking at that, it's a unique experience, rather than 'separate'. I see there's lots of interactions, things that affect experience, so it's not separate. (just noticed 'I see', but not editing)

There are many circumstances by which the feeling of separation arises.
The point is: is this feeling of separation anything else but a thought?
Are you expecting the sense of self to stop?

[vivslack]

Thank you. I'll stay with those qns today and see.

With 'when I look', it's as though there is some kind of choice happening, between following thinking or asking a qn and being present to an answer. It does seem that the choice just happens, there's no 'me' thing making it, yet it doesn't seem just random either.

Is this 'wanting to go towards truth and be present' only a thought? It seems like my life is going that way, maybe there's concern about life taking me back to thinking & illusion?

There is still some felt sense of self, and yes I think there had been expectations that would disappear somehow? It doesn't have a character, more like it's just there, being.

[vivslack]

Sitting with this more yesterday and in the night, what seems left is a bit of holding on to the idea of 'having a purpose' in life, wanting to 'save the world'. There's fear that if I let go I'll go to the dark side or give up or something!

So then, a thought that this would mean trusting that life will flow to good naturally, which seems a bit of a surreal idea. There's thoughts that flowers bloom, beautiful creatures emerge, art happens, all without a thought of purpose, they just are. So maybe it doesn't need 'me' and 'trying' too go towards something positive??

That feels a big jump so being gentle, patient, giving it time without forcing it

Does that resonate?

[Luisa]

Is this 'wanting to go towards truth and be present' only a thought? It seems like my life is going that way, maybe there's concern about life taking me back to thinking & illusion?

Is this 'wanting to go towards truth and be present' only a thought?
There are six doors of experience, so we consider in LU, the five senses plus the mind. To the seeing there are colours and shapes; to the heard, sounds; to the taste, flavours; to the smell, scents; to the feeling, sensations and to the mind, thoughts.
Please look at experience and answer your question :)

concern about life taking me back to thinking & illusion?

Is this concern really happening or is just another "self type" thought? Once it is known that Santa is an illusion, is it possible to go back and believe that is real?


You mentioned sense of self, thoughts, choice, expectations and fear. All pillars in our investigation. Let's go deeper into thoughts first and will continue with the other subjects later.

Please answer the questions above.

[vivslack]

They are clearly both only thoughts.

[vivslack]

'Choice' 'being skillful' 'bringing attention to now' are concepts, but useful concepts. They are thoughts but they can still help me, which is all ok. Awareness of peace right here and now.

[Luisa]

Hey vivslack,

Let's continue with thoughts. Ok? We will investigate choice latter.

I'm going to through you a battery of questions which I'm sure you are familiar with, so I appeal to your patience and invite you to answer them one by one, honestly looking into direct experience, letting aside any rational and conceptual answer.

Where are thoughts coming from? Where are they going?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?
Can something be found that generates thoughts? Can the source of thoughts be found?
Does the thinker of thoughts appear in direct experience? If so, how exactly?
Do you think thoughts, or do thoughts think you, or do thoughts appear as you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?


If you feel that there is a thought, that you believe in...
What is "There is a belief in this thought" in actual experience? Or: How do you know that there is a belief in a thought? What tells you about that?

[vivslack]

Thanks for your questions.

Thinking happens, thoughts appear and fade away. There's not 'someone' controlling thoughts, or creating them, they can't be stopped or created. There's no thinker in direct experience, just thinking happening and awareness. Thought of 'I' and 'me' appear, and there were stories of 'i am thinking' but they are all just thoughts.

[Luisa]

Excellent!

Sitting with this more yesterday and in the night, what seems left is a bit of holding on to the idea of 'having a purpose' in life, wanting to 'save the world'. There's fear that if I let go I'll go to the dark side or give up or something!

Fear is the unavoidable guest in LU process.
Fear is "good guy". It brings a message that needs to be acknowledge
Look at the experience, the sensation or sensations the mind jumps to label fear.

Is fear inherent to the sensations or is just a thought?
What is there behind those sensations? Really look, is there anything behind the sensations?

Fear normally calls to stop something. What is fear trying to stop here, in this particular conversation?

Good job vivslack ;)

[vivslack]

Thanks so much for your support.

This feeling has shifted since, not so alive, but still there subtly...

The sensations are tightness in the chest and groin, that are changing & moving, and thinking 'if i don't have a purpose I might feel lost'.

The fear seems to be protecting the character 'i' from feeling like it has no purpose, no control (which is an illusion). This isn't something real in present awareness, but being kind & gentle with that, whilst knowing it's a thought.

Mostly now I feel more peaceful, more aware of thoughts & sensations, and more aware of thoughts that are real but not true, able to see they are stories & ideas.