Ready for liberation

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:29 pm

Hi C,

I will also be on vacation starting a couple of days from now till the 17nth. I will have intermittent to little internet access. If you want to give me some exercises to do and I will note down the results and report back whenever I am able to, during these days, that would be great.

Thanks
S

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Canfora
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:30 pm

Hi S,

Thank you for your answers. They sound good. And thank you for letting me know you are going on vacation. I would prefer that you enjoy the holidays without thinking about this. There is no need to rush!

The only exercise I would advice - if you really feel you should be doing something - is that you observe what is going on, when it's going on, without giving it too much thought - and check if a real self can be seen or sensed in any way.

I wish you wonderful vacations that charge your batteries!

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:18 am

Dear C,
Thank you for the nice message.

Part of the idea behind this vacation was to devote more time to this exercise, without the distractions of day-to-day responsibilities.
I will do as you have said, as often as possible.
However, if you have something I can do a bit more intensely (you know what i mean), and report as often as i can (not daily), please let me know. I appreciate your help.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:02 pm

Hi S,

I'm not sure if I understand why you think you need more time and effort and even going into a vacation to see what I'm pointing at.
To me it seems you may be avoiding looking to what is here now?
Do you think that you can only see this in the future? In other circumstances?
If you don't look and see what is here now NOW, it is very likely that you will also avoid doing it later.
Avoidance is normal, it's okay, it shows that your are going outside your comfort zone.
But it will make you miss the obvious.
If a self is real it has to be here!
It has to be closest than close.
It has to be something.
It has to have a shape, a color, a size.

So don't be afraid and have a look.
Observe what surrounds you and check if such a self is real or if is an illusion created by thinking, language and assumptions that were never questioned.

Right now, do you see a you?
Do you see it with vision (the faculty or state of being able to see), with the eyes?
This you that is trying to see it's non existence?
Where is it? Can you find it?
Is this you something that is as real as cup, a cat, a tree?
Can you see it in any way, shape or form?

What can you see?
What can't be found?
Do you see a you?

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:21 pm

Hi C,
I'm not sure if I understand why you think you need more time and effort and even going into a vacation to see what I'm pointing at.
To me it seems you may be avoiding looking to what is here now?
Well, I cannot find a self whenever i look.
My mind does not allow me to look often enough, when I am busy with day-to-day things. The idea was to keep looking more often and sort of practice "seeing" rather than thinking and commenting and imagining. I don't seem to be able to do it often while in my usual routine.
I thought that a change in place, in nature, would help. It would probably be more pleasing to look at beautiful greenery and actually try to see, than when i am at home doing "blah" chores or work (i tend to escape into thoughts and do things like an automaton many times).

You know, it is possible that this is a postponing tactic, like you seem to suggest. However, this is what I have noticed: simple actions are preempted by my thinking. When i am listening to music, i struggle to listen to the raw input. its always "processed" somehow by my mind (i hope you understand what i am trying to say, and this is not too strange).
i know there are exercises that one can do which will help with practice of "seeing". It is simple but my mind is just too quick with interfering.
So this is what i was asking in my message to you.

However, I leave in 24 hours, and if you still think all i need to do is just keep trying to find a self, okay then.


Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:12 pm

Hi S,

Thank you for your answer.

You've wrote:
I cannot find a self whenever i look.
If this is true, what are you expecting that practicing seeing will make you achieve? You are already seeing that a self can't be seen!
i know there are exercises that one can do which will help with practice of "seeing". It is simple but my mind is just too quick with interfering.
So this is what i was asking in my message to you.
I understand what you are saying. When you say that your mind is in the way of the seeing it sounds like there is something wrong. What would you like to be different?

OK, exercises, let's see...

Try to find the answer to these questions by looking at what is happening while it's happening:

- what makes the body move? (you can observe a hand moving - or not - to find the answer, or you can observe the body while it moves)

- can a thought think? what can a thought do?

- are you inside the body? (do imaginary body scans to check if a little you could be somewhere among what makes the body a body - I know this is a mental exercise but it's a good one, no need to have surgery to see what is inside the body...)

- are you outside the body? (look ate landscapes and other people. Do you find any evidences of the existence of separate entities anywhere? When you see a body, are you seeing a body moving or a person/entity moving?)

I hope that's not too much, I hope that's enough.

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:54 am

Hi C.
Thanks for the exercises. I will write after a few days of practice.
Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:19 am

Ok, I'll wait.

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:49 pm

Hi Canfora,

Nice to be writing to you after a long break. How are you doing?

I tried to practice looking, but encountered all kinds of resistance. Most were thoughts convincing me of boredom or postponing so I could do it "properly".

what makes the body move? (you can observe a hand moving - or not - to find the answer, or you can observe the body while it moves)

- can a thought think? what can a thought do?

- are you inside the body? (do imaginary body scans to check if a little you could be somewhere among what makes the body a body - I know this is a mental exercise but it's a good one, no need to have surgery to see what is inside the body...)

- are you outside the body? (look ate landscapes and other people. Do you find any evidences of the existence of separate entities anywhere? When you see a body, are you seeing a body moving or a person/entity moving?)
Exercise 1: what makes the body move?
when i move a hand, it moves, or not without my seeming involvement. when i deliberately say to myself, i will not pick up this object, the intention is a thought, and the action happens, but i don't seem to know of an entity that is moving the hand. the action is happening, the thought is there. sometimes, the thought is an after-thought, so to speak. things are happening without my having to think and deliberately do.
however, while in conversation, sometimes i am pushed from the inside to compulsively say something. but the entity pushing and the "me"are still a mystery.

Exercise 2: can a thought think?
thoughts are occurring. thoughts can judge and talk about other thoughts. but maybe they cannot think.

Exercise 3 and 4: are you inside or outside the body
i feel like i am behind the eyes. when i look behind the eyes, i cannot find anything. i feel like i am looking at things outside my body, so i am not outside the body.
i see other bodies moving. i don't see other people. i see other bodies.

however, i feel like a separate entity interacting with other entities.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:22 am

Hello S, welcome back. I'm fine thanks. Hope you had nice holidays!
I tried to practice looking, but encountered all kinds of resistance. Most were thoughts convincing me of boredom or postponing so I could do it "properly".
Did you try to see if behind those thoughts you could find a thinker?
Exercise 1: what makes the body move?
when i move a hand, it moves, or not without my seeming involvement. when i deliberately say to myself, i will not pick up this object, the intention is a thought, and the action happens, but i don't seem to know of an entity that is moving the hand. the action is happening, the thought is there. sometimes, the thought is an after-thought, so to speak. things are happening without my having to think and deliberately do.
however, while in conversation, sometimes i am pushed from the inside to compulsively say something. but the entity pushing and the "me"are still a mystery.
When you write "but i don't seem to know of an entity that is moving the hand" what do you mean?
thoughts can judge and talk about other thoughts. but maybe they cannot think.
Think the thought "banana". What do you see happening when you think "banana"? Can this thought judge or talk or think?
If after looking to what the thought can do, your answer is yes, can you describe how the thought does that?
i feel like a separate entity interacting with other entities.
You can notice that feeling when you focus your attention on it. Can you also notice the I that is suppose to be feeling the feeling?

Or is the feeling creating the illusion that there is a you feeling like that?

Can you see a real you behind that feeling?

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:08 pm

Hi C,

I had a wonderful vacation, thanks for asking.

I have been really busy with the holiday season coming up.
When you write "but i don't seem to know of an entity that is moving the hand" what do you mean?
What i meant to say was, when i look at my hand moving, it seems like it is moving and i am watching. i don't feel like it is me doing it. if it is not me, then i try to look for something that is moving the hand, and i don't find any such entity.

it is weird and eerie.
Think the thought "banana". What do you see happening when you think "banana"? Can this thought judge or talk or think?
If after looking to what the thought can do, your answer is yes, can you describe how the thought does that?

this was a poser. it really got me to question what judgement is. considering the amount of trouble it causes, i can't seem to define it properly.
when i think of "banana", a yellow fruit comes up as an image. if i think forcefully, i can feel the taste of a banana in my mouth. that is it. this thought cannot judge.
so what is judgement. when i think (a thought arises), "she is an arrogant person", that seems to be a judgement of that person. is it the thought that is judging?
Well, if i think about it, the thought itself is just a sound i hear in my head. it evokes an emotion in me, which is physically manifested in the body. the combination of that physical sensation and the thought, i call judgment. its an opinion rather than fact.
So is a thought doing that? Can thought cause emotion? The same thought will not cause an emotion in a different person, so it is not inherent in that thought itself to cause the emotion.
Is it possible that the thought and emotion are co-arising but are not related? from my experience, it feels like they are related because i can predict what emotion a particular thought can cause in me (that was a long answer).

You can notice that feeling when you focus your attention on it. Can you also notice the I that is suppose to be feeling the feeling?

Or is the feeling creating the illusion that there is a you feeling like that?
I feel like a separate entity when i focus, else, i don't know because i am focusing on that. if a person forcibly takes something from my hand, i sure behave like it is a separate person doing me harm, even when i am not thinking about separateness.

The resistance to looking frequently continues. However, I plod on.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:49 pm

Hi S, thank you for your answer. It's okay if you write a long answer. I've been busy too.

It's curious how you feel resistance relate to looking although you seem to enjoy thinking about these subjects. Do you have the tendency to try to escape the present moment? Would you say the present moment lacks something or shouldn't be as it is?
The resistance to looking frequently continues. However, I plod on.
Try looking "behind" this resistance. What can you see there? Is it an I?

You're still trying to find answers. Imagine that you've found satisfactory answers to the questions in your post. Would those answers bring you closer to seeing if you are or aren't a separate, solid, permanent, real I?

Imagine that you want to see the North Pole. You have all these questions about the North Pole. You read about it, you see the videos about it, you find the answers. Does this mean you know the real North Pole? Or to know it, you need to rely in more than just knowledge?

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:56 pm

Hi S,

There is always something that my mind wants to change about this present moment. Even if the moment brings exactly what the mind wished for, there is a wish for betterment. The definition of better is always changing.

I know this, and am slowly getting wise to its effects.

Its funny, at this very moment, I seem to want to do nothing or anything. There is no pressure or compulsion to change anything. I have been feeling like this since afternoon, after my meditation practice. There is a sort of "no need to do anything" feeling while action is still going on without opposition.

I have felt like this each time I have had a deeper meditation session.

While i am usually one to analyze and pick and peck at concepts, right now, i just don't feel the need to "know" anything.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:46 am

Hi S,

Sounds like a nice state to be in.
Did you also try to see if a self is real?
What do you see when you look?
Can you see a you?
Is there something in what surrounds you that matches your ideas about what you are? If there is, what is that?

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:57 am

Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:11 pm

Hi C,
It was a nice state, while it lasted.
during that state, i was just content, nothing else was different. i did not find a "me" either, that was content.

Is there something in what surrounds you that matches your ideas about what you are? If there is, what is that?

My idea about me is a separate "person" going about daily activities, interacting with other beings, reacting to situations, watching, analyzing, deciding, and planning.

is there anything that surrounds me that matches these ideas about me?

when i speak to another person (body, i guess, rather than person), they respond appropriately, confirming my ideas about separateness.

it seems like thought plays a big role. i try to understand by analyzing. thoughts tell me that there is another person. if i ask him his name, he will tell me. and when this is proven true (truth again is defined by matching the answer with what the thought has told me is true), my separateness is reiterated.

i feel my eyes tired and burning. so what is feeling the tiredness and burning if not me? i have to look and not ask questions, i get it. see rather than analyze.

so i feel the burning. and i see what is feeling the burning. i can perceive nothing there. whether with eyes open or closed. yet, this does not shift anything in me. its like i am looking at a car pass by and notice that it is blue in color. yes, its blue, but it does not effect me.

i want to realize that there is no one here (or see one if there is). i seem to just notice offhandedly. am i doing something wrong?

Regards
S


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