Ready for liberation

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:57 am

Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Hello C,

Thank you for the reply.

I can feel the wind, but on my body. All things I feel are happening TO my body. Even the taste of soup is known through eating with my body. On the other hand, I cannot feel wind that is moving the grass.
Is feeling something equal to owning or being that something?
The body is felt yes. Does this mean it is owned? By what?
Feeling the body and feeling with the body may not mean that it is owned.
And when I look for what is claiming to own the body, i do not find anything concrete.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:00 pm

Hi S,

Do you believe that you are inside the body? If you do, where would you say you are located?

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:57 am

Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:45 pm

Hi C,

I do feel like I am inside the body. I feel like I am behind the eyes, and somewhere between the heart region and the eyes.
I have tried many times to pinpoint where and to describe myself, but all i "see" is darkness and feel a sensation in my heart region.

But i always feel like i am inside the body like a camera pointed outward into the world. Whenever I try to perceive myself, i find nothing i can describe.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Hi S,
I do feel like I am inside the body. I feel like I am behind the eyes, and somewhere between the heart region and the eyes.
You have noticed a feeling.
Have a closer look.
Do you feel there is an I in a specific place because you are trying to find an I or because a real I is there?

What happens to that feeling when you are distracted? Do you still feel you have a location?

Do you know the rubber hand experiment? It shows how feelings something can be deceiving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:45 pm

Hi C,
Do you feel there is an I in a specific place because you are trying to find an I or because a real I is there?
Actually, you are right on the mark. I only feel the i-ness when i look for it, and even that is a stretch, actually. i find it only because i am trying to find it. even when there is a feeling, i don't find anything concrete there.

its very confusing. and whenever i try to look, i feel a wave of sleepiness.
What happens to that feeling when you are distracted? Do you still feel you have a location?
when i am distracted, there is no sense of i. Actually, i rarely feel a sense of I. i have to really repeat to myself "I" several times before i can feel the i-ness.
most of the time, i feel like things are happening like in a dream and i am lost in a world created by thoughts.

its only when there is a physical sensation or a happy or stressful situation, that i feel like i am shocked back into the body.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:41 pm

Hi S,
Actually, you are right on the mark. I only feel the i-ness when i look for it, and even that is a stretch, actually. i find it only because i am trying to find it. even when there is a feeling, i don't find anything concrete there.
Well done. It's the searching for that creates the illusion that it is there.
its very confusing. and whenever i try to look, i feel a wave of sleepiness.
Maybe you are confusing looking with something else. Can you please describe what you do to look at something that you think could be the I?
when i am distracted, there is no sense of i. Actually, i rarely feel a sense of I. i have to really repeat to myself "I" several times before i can feel the i-ness.
most of the time, i feel like things are happening like in a dream and i am lost in a world created by thoughts.
Do you think you should always be present, focused, without getting lost in thoughts?
At the time being I love to lose myself in daydreaming :)
Do you think this is a problem or that it has a meaning?
its only when there is a physical sensation or a happy or stressful situation, that i feel like i am shocked back into the body.
I understand what you are saying. We tend to focus when circumstances demand our attention.
Do you think you should always be "back in the body"? Or that the experience of being shocked back into the body means that you are the body or inside the body?

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:13 am

Hi C,
Maybe you are confusing looking with something else. Can you please describe what you do to look at something that you think could be the I?
I close my eyes and feel into the the i-ness that i sense. this usually means feeling into what is looking our through these eyes. this looking is usually accompanied by several thoughts, which confirm or deny that i have found the i-ness.

it usually feels like the i-ness i behind the eyes and is somewhere close to my back. but like i said, it is slippery, and i usually have to try several times to feel this i-ness. sometimes i am not able to feel this.
Do you think you should always be present, focused, without getting lost in thoughts?
At the time being I love to lose myself in daydreaming :)
Do you think this is a problem or that it has a meaning?
i feel being lost in thoughts leads to trouble. thoughts i get are usually negative, destructive, judgmental, and unhelpful (many times). i have tried to not pay attention to thoughts, which is when i am happier.
when i am lost in thoughts, it feel that they have meaning or at least they threaten or tempt me to do things i would rather not (eat a cookie when i should not due to health reasons, say an unkind word due to judgment, etc).
Do you think you should always be "back in the body"? Or that the experience of being shocked back into the body means that you are the body or inside the body?
when i am back in the body, i am more in touch with what is happening around me (in normal circumstances, and as opposed to when i am lost in thoughts). during stress, when i am shocked into the body, it does feel like i have come down from some pink cloud back to reality. it physically feels like i am dragged into the body. it may mean that i just have more intense body-related sensations, though.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:11 pm

Hi S,

How are things going? Do you still feel resistance around trying to find a self?
To me you seem to be doing fine :)
I close my eyes and feel into the the i-ness that i sense. this usually means feeling into what is looking our through these eyes. this looking is usually accompanied by several thoughts, which confirm or deny that i have found the i-ness.

it usually feels like the i-ness i behind the eyes and is somewhere close to my back. but like i said, it is slippery, and i usually have to try several times to feel this i-ness. sometimes i am not able to feel this.
Ok.
i feel being lost in thoughts leads to trouble. thoughts i get are usually negative, destructive, judgmental, and unhelpful (many times). i have tried to not pay attention to thoughts, which is when i am happier.
when i am lost in thoughts, it feel that they have meaning or at least they threaten or tempt me to do things i would rather not (eat a cookie when i should not due to health reasons, say an unkind word due to judgment, etc).
I understand what you are saying. Notice that if those thoughts were your thoughts and if you were the thinker, you could change the thoughts you sometimes have that bother you. If you can't, could it be they aren't yours and you aren't the thinker also?

At the same time it is possible to change the content of thoughts so that they become "healthier". There are some techniques, that psychologists use, and can change the way situations are perceived and so on.

Do you think that the way you are now isn't the best you can be in these specific circumstances?

When you eat the cookie - when you do something you think you shouldn't be doing - does that mean there must be a real you eating the cookie - acting in a way it shouldn't?

Do the judgments of these kind of actions add to the illusion that you are a (weak, unhealthy, with low self-esteem and control) you?

Does the action + the story thinking plays about the action = real self?

Have a look and share what you find.

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:48 pm

Hi C,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't feel resistance to trying to find the me anymore. Now it is more like distractions appearing, or thoughts telling me that this is not interesting, etc.
I understand what you are saying. Notice that if those thoughts were your thoughts and if you were the thinker, you could change the thoughts you sometimes have that bother you. If you can't, could it be they aren't yours and you aren't the thinker also?

At the same time it is possible to change the content of thoughts so that they become "healthier". There are some techniques, that psychologists use, and can change the way situations are perceived and so on.
So if it is possible to change one's thoughts then they would logically be their thoughts, right?
I started this journey with self-help techniques, trying the get healthier thoughts, etc., but have come to the conclusion that this is not a permanent fix. Hence, my presence here.
Do you think that the way you are now isn't the best you can be in these specific circumstances?
Short answer, yes. My mind is always telling me how I could be better. In fact, even when I achieved all that I had set out to, in my career, my mind was constantly pointing out mistakes.

Based on all that I have experienced, I can see that my mind always dangles carrots and when I reach the goal, it makes sure there is dissatisfaction at any cost.
When you eat the cookie - when you do something you think you shouldn't be doing - does that mean there must be a real you eating the cookie - acting in a way it shouldn't?

This is a good question. What you say is true. the thoughts that tell me i am wrong when eating the cookie clearly re-state each time, that there is a me. Now in those instances, thoughts seem to suggest and subtly emphasize a "me".
Do the judgments of these kind of actions add to the illusion that you are a (weak, unhealthy, with low self-esteem and control) you?

Does the action + the story thinking plays about the action = real self?
They certainly keep confirming this image they create (thought-created images) of a person with good and bad qualities.

What you mention as the real self, that is interesting. The action is taken to be performed by the real self (thinking programmed by everyone around since childhood), and the story confirms the presence of a self that does the actions.

The self is defined every instant by actions, whether it is actively doing something or doing "not doing", like "i am resting".
If there is no action and no story, there is no definition of the self.

when i am absorbed in action or interaction with others, and there is no investing in thoughts and what thoughts are telling me, it is difficult to feel an "i". it is actually very peaceful when there is no sense of "i" doing something.

Regards
S

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Canfora
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:22 am

Hi S,
I don't feel resistance to trying to find the me anymore. Now it is more like distractions appearing, or thoughts telling me that this is not interesting, etc.
Isn't it curious how you keep going despite all these apparent obstacles? I admire your persistence.
So if it is possible to change one's thoughts then they would logically be their thoughts, right?
I started this journey with self-help techniques, trying the get healthier thoughts, etc., but have come to the conclusion that this is not a permanent fix. Hence, my presence here.
I know what you mean. I also arrived at LU following a self~help path. I thought something was wrong with me and if I tried enough I could fix myself. I'm not sure if you are saying that if thoughts can be changed then it is logic that they must be changed by their owner. This would only be true if the owner could be found outside thoughts. In LU we define real as something that doesn't disappear when you aren't thinking about it.

The same way the body can be changed if you practice a sport, the content of thoughts can be changed if you practice some techniques. Change seems to imply the existence of a person that changes but is this so? What and where would this person be? (this is a rhetoric question)

Oh, and this exploration isn't a permanent fix either. If you can't find a self, how can a self be fixed?
If there is no action and no story, there is no definition of the self.
And how about when there is action and a story? Does a real self pop up?

Have a look. Do you see a you? What do you see? What is real at the time being? Can you describe what is going on now?

Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:30 pm

Hi C,

I will take another day to reply. Have not fully thought about what you said.

Thanks
S

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:49 pm

Hi C,
Hope you are doing well.
Isn't it curious how you keep going despite all these apparent obstacles? I admire your persistence.
Thank you, i appreciate the compliment, since i never really gave myself credit for that. its almost like there is no other way than this.
I know what you mean. I also arrived at LU following a self~help path. I thought something was wrong with me and if I tried enough I could fix myself.
i can relate to that. i remember the gymnastics of trying to "form good habits", "affirmations every day", and now i see it all as a band aid. if we try and fix one "problem' another one takes its place. I was asked to try cognitive behavioral therapy once, and i could see so clearly that it was going to be an eternal journey of trying to "fix" one problem after another.
I'm not sure if you are saying that if thoughts can be changed then it is logic that they must be changed by their owner. This would only be true if the owner could be found outside thoughts. In LU we define real as something that doesn't disappear when you aren't thinking about it.
The same way the body can be changed if you practice a sport, the content of thoughts can be changed if you practice some techniques. Change seems to imply the existence of a person that changes but is this so? What and where would this person be? (this is a rhetoric question)
I understand what you are saying. If we cannot see an entity doing the practicing to change thoughts, we cannot use the change in thoughts as proof of existence of the entity. This stuff gets confusing.
I like the example about the body. It is cause and effect.
Oh, and this exploration isn't a permanent fix either. If you can't find a self, how can a self be fixed?
I understand that. but is it a way out of thinking that i am a separate entity?
And how about when there is action and a story? Does a real self pop up?
When i am trying to defend my position, whatever it may be, it is under the impression that there is an "i". "What i say is correct", "this is mine", and so on.

But it is a thought that guides this kind of defending. I have never found a proper "I" ever.
Have a look. Do you see a you? What do you see? What is real at the time being? Can you describe what is going on now?

What is real right now is the feel of the chair cushion i am sitting on, the breeze on my skin, the sound of traffic, the sound and feel of typing this out, thoughts reading out what is being written, the sound of the fan, random thoughts.

its funny its like what i am writing here feels like it is being dictated rather than me creating it.

Regards
S

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
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Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:53 pm

Hi C,

I write again, since I am being bombarded by thoughts which tell me this is a purely intellectual exercise, and an intellectual understanding will not get me anywhere. I feel a lot of emotion around this.
Some hope that this is not the case?
Please comment.

Regards
S

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Canfora
Posts: 3756
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready for liberation

Postby Canfora » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:07 pm

Hi S, thank you for your posts and for your honesty.
Oh, and this exploration isn't a permanent fix either. If you can't find a self, how can a self be fixed?

I understand that. but is it a way out of thinking that i am a separate entity?
No. And yes. You realize you are not a separate self but it is very likely that you still think as you did before. Thinking as you do right now is normal - thinking about I, me... about my, mine - , we aren't trying to change the way you think. To do that we would have to create a new language, learn it and so on. That would be a lot of unnecessary work and I doubt that it would be even a possibility. You can see you aren't a separate self regardless of the content of thinking. This is about seeing and seeing has nothing to do with thinking. You don't have to think to see something.

If I could do this, you can do it also. Just keep going despite the negative mind commentary and the unpleasant emotions.

It is a good thing that you are aware of those thoughts. Since you are aware of them maybe you can command them to stop while they are happening and shift the thinking to other kind of thoughts? Or you can notice how they're just telling you a story about an imaginary future you that is going to fail and since you aren't that future you, they aren't even about you, so you don't have any reasons to believe them? These are just (probably strange) suggestions about how to deal with these negative comments. Ignore them if they sound too weird or unhelpful.
I write again, since I am being bombarded by thoughts which tell me this is a purely intellectual exercise, and an intellectual understanding will not get me anywhere. I feel a lot of emotion around this.
Some hope that this is not the case?
Please comment.
Your thoughts are pointing in the right direction. All the thinking you can do "is a purely intellectual exercise".

But "this", what we are doing here, isn't "a purely intellectual exercise" that "will not get me anywhere."

Thoughts can't know what is going on now. And they aren't fortune tellers either! You can believe the content of thoughts but that doesn't mean that they are true or that they can predict the future.

Would you say thoughts have the power to create your present experience?

Or is the content of thoughts like a commentary, "footnotes" added into the moment, about you, your daily live, the self from the past, the self from the future?


Take care,
C

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smalkapuram
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:57 am

Re: Ready for liberation

Postby smalkapuram » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:26 pm

Hi C,

Thank you for your message.
If I could do this, you can do it also. Just keep going despite the negative mind commentary and the unpleasant emotions.
That is good. Ok.
It is a good thing that you are aware of those thoughts. Since you are aware of them maybe you can command them to stop while they are happening and shift the thinking to other kind of thoughts? Or you can notice how they're just telling you a story about an imaginary future you that is going to fail and since you aren't that future you, they aren't even about you, so you don't have any reasons to believe them?
Believing thoughts does not lead anywhere nice. I know that by experience. They are like traps that pull you in and take you deeper till you are convinced of something completely arbitrary.
But "this", what we are doing here, isn't "a purely intellectual exercise" that "will not get me anywhere."

Thoughts can't know what is going on now. And they aren't fortune tellers either! You can believe the content of thoughts but that doesn't mean that they are true or that they can predict the future.

Would you say thoughts have the power to create your present experience?

Or is the content of thoughts like a commentary, "footnotes" added into the moment, about you, your daily live, the self from the past, the self from the future?
That is good to know.
Thoughts are just occurring so randomly that I have no clue about where they come from, what their purpose is, or what they are, even. If I believe the content of a thought i have now and act on it, it follows that it will exert influence when i see a consequence of the action. Thoughts in themselves may not have the power, but investing in them is where the power lies, I feel.

Thoughts definitely feel like a commentary of what is happening, has happened, and may happen, about my past and future self.

Regards
S


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