Beginner's Mind

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Mary Susan
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Beginner's Mind

Postby Mary Susan » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:48 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That thoughts are not real, not true, that they cannot be controlled, that even if "I" think "I" control them "I" don't. If "I" could control them then "I'd" be able to switch them off when thoughts bothered me and select thoughts that "I" prefer. This bag of flesh, blood and shit does not have an organ or entity that is in charge of life, the show

What are you looking for at LU?
Clear seeing of the above. Letting go of the ownership of thoughts and actions. Release from sticking to fear, anger, anxiety, to thinking this belongs to me. Of course, "I" wants to be happier, clearer, content but I know that can't be promised. I've read enough of your book to know that Liberation is simply a clear seeing, that there are no angels, pink clouds or anything "special" about the person who sees the truth. It's becoming like a baby again. A bundle of senses. A sponge just drinking in sights, sounds, feelings but without the illusion of ownership of anything. Just life is happening. "Mary" gets caught in the habit of thinking she owns her thought, speech and actions. There's confusion because when I trained as a novice in a Therevadan monastery we were taught concepts of sin, goodness, being mindful of actions and speech, honesty, wisdom. Loads of rules to keep. I was rebelious. I broke almost every rule. I told endless lies. I never really believed in it. My meditation mainly sucked because it bored me sitting for hours on end, and I fell asleep a great deal. I don't buy belief system. Tony Parsons, Jed McKenna, Byron Katie and your work rings TRUE but the "Mary story" doesn't completely get out the way. There's fear. Maybe it'll make me crazier, maybe family/friends will find me weird, maybe it'll be like a dissociative/depersonalization disorder. But freedom seems tantalizing. It seems PEACEFUL - not bliss like some heavenly state - but peace found in seeing that nothing's true. There's just an illusion of ME.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hopefully, to eventually really SEE there's no ME. To cross the Gateless Gate and gradually lose the Mary Crap illusion. To have attachment to the idea of Self fall away. I'm not expecting anything supernatural. Of course, there is some hope that a feeling of relief may come with the seeing but I understand that painful feelings do continue. I understand that in many ways Nothing changes, that life goes on very much like before.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I spent a year in a Zen monastery in Japan as a "fly on the wall" journalist so ME was very present. I spent 2 years training in a Therevadan monastery but was mucking about most of the time, breaking rules and not believing all the nonsense they spout so ME was very present. I've worked a lot with psychedelics and journeyed and had plenty of "deaths" but it all passes and I'm more attached to the visions and subconscious material that comes up. However, iboga, ayahuasca, mdma, 5 meo-dmt, mushrooms, peyote, san pedro et al have helped me overcome some fears and phobias, but ME is ultimately still here. Tony Parsons meetings have helped. Jed McKenna and Byron Katie also strike a chord of truth with ME, as do LU.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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JonathanR
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby JonathanR » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:13 am

Hi Mary Susan,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon. I'd be happy to work with you in your inquiry here and am offering to guide you.

What an interesting intro you wrote and such a varied set of experiences,, many of which I can relate to. zen, Theravada and various plants,

I will send some disclaimers and extra info in my next post but we may as well start now?

Where do you feel the main confusion lies for you?

Just looking at whatever is in front of you right now, what is it that is doing the seeing? This may seem like an obtuse,question but just explore it and let me know?

Warm regards

Jon

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Mary Susan
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby Mary Susan » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:12 pm

Hi Jon,
Thanks for offering to be my guide.
Nice to hear we share some common experiences, particularly with certain plants :-)
The confusion is in the mind. Getting pulled around by thoughts, pulled into fear and worry, images of a bleak future.
It's the mind and uncomfortable feelings that arise in the body with anxiety.
Conceptually it's gotten that there is no-one creating thoughts because if there was "I" could stop them, change them at will and not have to feel like a slave to them.
Confusion is what seems to be holding the reigns of thought for the past year or so. The Therevadans say YOU can mastet YOUR mind by learning to be mindful. Really? Sometimes "I" feel focused, immersed, on track but recently there is boredom, lack of meaning, focus in "my" life, or so it seems, and worry, anxiety, confusement, judgement fills the mind. This "I" seems to think that if "I'm" not pursuing concrete goals that my ego identifies with then there's a problem. Money, fears of being poor, homeless, vulnerable in old age arise as "I've not been responsible with money, pension planning, settling down like most of my generation." At 57 "I" presently choose to be homeless and do work way below my skill level. There is a laziness and resignation of "now being past it - an old woman, useless on the scrap heap." Lol!! It's all story. It's all nonsence. Sometimes there are two conflicting thoughts held in the mind at virtually the same time. "I" am a myth, a bloody myth. It is seen clearly from time to time but still find an "I" believing and spouting all sorts of bollocks. Sometimes there is a waffling of thoughts that just arise and there is a seeing that it's just verbal dysentry and the opposite is equally true. This being is too much in the head - too much analysis, too much thought, too much verbal dysentry. And, that's a story too. Lol!!!

The eyes see, or so "I" often feels. Scientists says it's the brain that sees and that seems truer as psychedelics change what is seen. Is what is seen TRUE, REAL? Yes, but only for whatever the neural networks and brain chemicals are doing at the time. "I" cannot make a trip (good or bad) stop at will. There is no stopping heartbeat, breathing, digestion, sweating with willpower and even if "I" think "I" can take credit or discredit for anything there is an occasional seeing that this isn't true. Life is just happening and the "Mary Susan mind" creates a narrative around it.

So, there is a seeing of sorts but an "I" definitely is around most of the time. But just sharing this seems to loosen up the sense of "Me." There is a struggle with being "good and bad." Christan upbringing, societal concepts of it, and the Therevadan brainwashing stories of Karma, rules, morals, ethics blah, blah! "I" loves what Tony Parsons says, like there is no good, no bad, no karma. It makes sense but the brainwashing has a strong hold over "me" sometimes leading to thoughts of guilt, regret et al.

Get rid of Mary, stop believing the stories, stop owning the stories that's where the Gateless Gate leads once beyond the threshold. Perhaps!

Thanks for guiding :-)

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Mary Susan
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby Mary Susan » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:36 pm

Hi Jon,
Thanks for offering to be my guide.
Nice to hear we share some common experiences, particularly with certain plants :-)
The confusion is in the mind. Getting pulled around by thoughts, pulled into fear and worry, images of a bleak future.
It's the mind and uncomfortable feelings that arise in the body with anxiety.
Conceptually it's gotten that there is no-one creating thoughts because if there was "I" could stop them, change them at will and not have to feel like a slave to them.
Confusion is what seems to be holding the reigns of thought for the past year or so. The Therevadans say YOU can mastet YOUR mind by learning to be mindful. Really? Sometimes "I" feel focused, immersed, on track but recently there is boredom, lack of meaning, focus in "my" life, or so it seems, and worry, anxiety, confusion, judgement fills the mind. This "I" seems to think that if "I'm" not pursuing concrete goals that my ego identifies with then there's a problem. Money, fears of being poor, homeless, vulnerable in old age arise as "I've not been responsible with money, pension planning, settling down like most of my generation." At 57 "I" presently choose to be homeless and do work way below my skill level. There is a laziness and resignation of "now being past it - an old woman, useless on the scrap heap." Lol!! It's all story. It's all nonsence. Sometimes there are two conflicting thoughts held in the mind at virtually the same time. "I" am a myth, a bloody myth. It is seen clearly from time to time but still find an "I" believing and spouting all sorts of bollocks. Sometimes there is a waffling of thoughts that just arise and there is a seeing that it's just verbal dysentry and the opposite is equally true. This being is too much in the head - too much analysis, too much thought, too much verbal dysentry. And, that's a story too. Lol!!!

The eyes see, or so "I" often feels. Scientists says it's the brain that sees and that seems truer as psychedelics change what is seen. Is what is seen TRUE, REAL? Yes, but only for whatever the neural networks and brain chemicals are doing at the time. "I" cannot make a trip (good or bad) stop at will. There is no stopping heartbeat, breathing, digestion, sweating with willpower and even if "I" think "I" can take credit or discredit for anything there is an occasional seeing that this isn't true. Life is just happening and the "Mary Susan mind" creates a narrative around it.

So, there is a seeing of sorts but an "I" definitely is around most of the time. But just sharing this seems to loosen up the sense of "Me." There is a struggle with being "good and bad." Christan upbringing, societal concepts of it, and the Therevadan brainwashing stories of Karma, rules, morals, ethics blah, blah! "I" loves what Tony Parsons says, like there is no good, no bad, no karma. It makes sense but the brainwashing has a strong hold over "me" sometimes leading to thoughts of guilt, regret et al.

Decades of work as a writer, journalist, broadcaster, traveller, explorer, seeker of thrills, has caused (and/or is the result of) a big identification with ME, MY, MINE, I. There is still a belief that there is a ME, a MARY/SUSAN, SOMEONE at the helm who is tootling along satisfactorily or making a car crash of things. Lol!

Get rid of Mary, stop believing the stories, stop owning the stories, stop owning the actions and what happens and creating narrative around it all - that's where the Gateless Gate leads once beyond the threshold. Perhaps! It's a seeing that EVERYTHING is bollocks - the news, people's views, history, geography, science, time, space, stories of the universe, whatever. It's all STORY!!!

Thanks for guiding :-)

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Mary Susan
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Duh!

Postby Mary Susan » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:05 pm

Hi Jon,
Because there is a tendency for me to go over what's written, edit and embelish, there are two responses above. Basically they're the same so there's no need to read both. I couldn't fathom how to delete the first post. It must be possible but ...

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JonathanR
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby JonathanR » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:20 pm

Hi Mary Susan,

No worries about posting twice. In the second one you used the 'Quote' function, which is why the text appeared against an orange background. I will use the quote function quite a lot. Please learn to use it yourself too. Its very handy. Nothing shows up against orange until you finally 'submit' your response.
. Thanks for offering to be my guide.
Nice to hear we share some common experiences, particularly with certain plants :-)
You are welcome. And yes, its nice :-)
. The confusion is in the mind. Getting pulled around by thoughts, pulled into fear and worry, images of a bleak future.
It's the mind and uncomfortable feelings that arise in the body with anxiety.
Conceptually it's gotten that there is no-one creating thoughts because if there was "I" could stop them, change them at will and not have to feel like a slave to them.
Well then, take a look for 'mind' right here and now. Is there an immediate experience of mind?

Take a look for self right now. Is there one?
. The Therevadans say YOU can mastet YOUR mind by learning to be mindful. Really? S
I know!!

The whole phrasing assumes a 'self' that must 'do' this.

Have you ever investigated the 'doer'? Its one thing to see that there isn't really a fixed or separate, self but it gets very interesting to see that there is no doer, chooser or decider.
. The eyes see, or so "I" often feels.
Hmm, really? Is there an immediate experience of 'eyes seeing' ? Are ''eyes' experienced first and then the seeing, or is it more like just seeing?

The words on this screen are seen. What is it that is doing the seeing? Is it 'eyes' or 'a brain' that sees or is seeing just happening?

Its important that I don't pack too much into one reply. Im not ignoring anything you have said, just focusing on a couple of things.

Jon

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Mary Susan
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby Mary Susan » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:36 pm

There is no mind to be found like an arm, leg, nose, ear, eye, head or any other body part can be found.
Perhaps mind is just another label, another story. It does not exist as anything that can be seen, weighed or touched. Only there is what I've been told about the mind, and even scientists, the so-called best of MINDS, are confused about what the mind really is.

Seeing with the eyes? Yes, seeing does just happen. At night in sleep there is dreaming - images sometimes appear and sometimes they are recalled, sometimes forgotten.

However, covering the eyes when awake causes the outside world (or is it inside world?) to disappear. If a blind person covered their eyes with their hands whose to say to what degree they might see less or more. I know a woman with Charles Bonnet Syndrome and sometimes she sees zebras in her living room. She lives in Wiltshire and nowhere near a zoo. She hallucinates. On psycoactive substances reality changes, but so-called reality is an hallucination too. There are plenty of visuals that trick humans to see certain colours, shapes that are not actually there. These images have worked their trick on ”me” even when there is understanding how the visual trick works.
Perception of colour can vary person to person; I've sometimes disagreed on what is blue, black, green or gey with a friend/colleague and I'm not even colour blind (well, I don't think so). Scientists reckon colours don't really exist in the world - it's just what humans see, it's an evolutionary thing, they say. Perhaps they're right, perhaps wrong. Science is a story too.

So, seeing is happening and there is no "I" who controls it. Sometimes seeing doesn't happen too even when a gorilla walks across a room and stops to beat its chest in full view of a camera (great video on Youtube showing how we tend to see what we expect to see and can somehow edit out even major occurences because they do not fit the expected scenario).

There is no actual "self" to be found. There's no "self" organ, just an illusion of it because of the conditioning from infancy and perhaps because of something in neurobiology.

The doer? Sometimes there is watching the movement of the hands, legs, feet. There is awareness that movement happens, that there is no planning as it's all too fast, too spontaneous. How could "I" be orchestrating this? How could anyone or any animal, or insect, bird, fish, organism claim a "self" is determining movement? However, there is still some disbelief somewhere that "I" am not the one choosing the words, crafting this sentence, but at the same time there is some kind of realization that "I'm" not too sure what might be written next. It could even be a typ0. Really?

Mary's a myth, totally not in charge! She's an illusion! Ghost in the machine, whatever! Hmmm! There's a seeing of it but there's an after thought that refuses to let go completely of the idea that somehow "I" am in control. But my years of research/reading has included enough neuroscience for me to accept that the scientists are right when they say there's NO-ONE there. Immersive VR has also shown that "I" can be fooled into thinking I'm in another body, in another place, doing things that another part of "my mind" knows is not real and yet my body is reacting as if the new reality is the TRUE one. The body is jolting, swaying, and there is nausea from some VR experiences.

So, yes, there is no doer. There is a seeing of it. That there are reactions, responses, feelings, thoughts that are not owned by ME, Mary, and yet there is still somewhere a clinging to the concept of self. Interesting - fear seems to be arising. An odd feeling in the body. A memory from infancy when there was an out of body sensation and on return to the body "I" was sitting in pooed knickers. Mummy wasn't happy. I was about 4 years-old at the time so a bit too old for such accidents. Hmmm! Story of Mary. The memory brought me back in the body; the fear is fading.

"I" do get all this but still feel it's largely a conceptual understanding although some of it is experiental too, but somehow "Mary", "ME, MINE, I" is still there.

It must be fear that holds Mary up as a shield against the TRUTH. Why such investment in Mary? It's been such hard work building "her" up - a lifetime's work. And, "she" creates so much suffering and confusion. Go on, push her more, Jon, over a cliff if you can, Lol!!

Thank you for your time and patience.

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JonathanR
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby JonathanR » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:30 pm

Hi Mary Susan,

I can see that you're attracted by the udea of 'getting rid of self'?

But here's a question... Who or what could get rid of self? Its catch 22. Where is the one that wishes to get rid iof self?

Is it even possible to get rid of self, if there never was one in the first place?

But, as you say, thoughts appear and it isn't possible to prevent thoughts from appearing. Or is it? Try preventing a thought from appearing.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby JonathanR » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:42 am

I should say, once again, that I'm not ignoring anything that you have written. In replying, guides tend to focus on a few key things. There is purpose in this

Best wishes

Jon

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Mary Susan
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby Mary Susan » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:21 pm

Hi Jon,
Yes, it makes sense that you do not address everything I write to you as much of it is story, concepts, hearsay, trimmings. There is a seeing that you are bringing me constantly to the place of focusing on who, if anyone, is this ME, I, MINE, I, SELF.

Getting rid of self! Thanks, yes, I keep saying that, thinking that but it's true who can get rid of who if there's no-one there. It's unpleasant thought and feelings that "I" want to get rid of, but there is no I who can get rid of them. If there was a Self at the helm of life then I'd be able to select my thoughts, speech, actions. This idea of a Self is illusion, delusion. Everything is just happening, just arising.

Try to prevent thoughts arising. Just because the mind goes quiet does not mean a Self did that. Who, what could take credit for it? When the mind is in a whirl there is a struggle to make it do anything that some part of the mind wants. It's all just mind battling. There is no-one there that can do anything?

So, is it true that the mind can be trained, mastered? Who would ever be there to train it? So, meditation can happen, yoga can happen, Tai Chi can happen, and a story about a self who is doing all these things can arise in the mind but no-one is actually doing anything and the mind, like the air, is sometimes a light breeze and sometimes a typhoon or whirlwind. It just is what it is! There's no-one mastering it. And, although an "I" may try to take credit for a calm mind, focus, flow, whatever, it is just what is happening.

So, Jon, do you think meditation, Tai Chi, yoga help calm the mind, train the mind? Or, is it, as Tony Parsons, says all bollocks. There's nothing wrong with these practices, but no-one is doing them - life is just happening, thoughts are just happening, and any attachment of self to how calm, centred or whatever one feels is a fiction. It's just what is happening. It's just what is arising. So, there's freedom in knowing that. Liberation in knowing that: I am not my thoughts, speech or action.

So, mindfulness is just a happening too. It happens or it doesn't, but no-one can take credit for it. No-one takes discredit too if they aren't mindful. So, the 8-fold path, 10 commandments and all the rules that religion and society throw at us are contrived and add to the mind's confusion. But that's not good or bad either - it's just what's happening.

Voila! There's a seeing of all this but how clearly? At the entrance or through the Gate? Not sure. It still feels more like an understanding, a concept, but perhaps it's truly gotten. No angelic horns or pink clouds - not that they were expected. No elation. More of just an "OK. I get it!" Who gets it? No-one! Hmmm! OK, so now I'm No-one. Is that it? No, there is no I to become a No-one. There's just No-one. Life is just happening. It doesn't mean a thing. No-one is there.

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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby JonathanR » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:55 pm

Ha ha! Beautiful.
. Voila! There's a seeing of all this but how clearly? At the entrance or through the Gate? Not sure. It still feels more like an understanding, a concept, but perhaps it's truly gotten.
Ok. What would 'truly gotten' have to look or feel like to be understood as being the real McCoy? As not just conceptual understanding?

If its not truly seen, how did you write all that stuff?

Jon

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Mary Susan
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby Mary Susan » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:15 am

Truly gotten could feel like anything. Why should it feel any particular way?
There is some sort of relief. Negative thoughts don't seem so sticky at the moment.
Perhaps there was expectation - more elation, more joy perhaps.
But that can arise and fall away like any other thought or feeling passing through.

Hmmm! Really! I guess that this is it. This is the seeing. This is the crossing of the Gateless Gate.
This is it. Actually, it is quite fabulous to just sink into that.

Perhaps time will tell if more of anything is to drop away. But really there's nothing to get. There's no-one to get anything.
Life is just happening. Mind tells its stories. There's just a dance.

So, somewhere a thought did arise expecting something to change in the body - a relaxation perhaps. Joy! Elation!
That's just all thought. A thought arose that there's a spouting of similar things said by Jed McKenna, Tony Parsons - things that make sense, are agreed with so that's the seeing.

LU says the Gateless Gate is the first step really. Makes sense. It all makes sense.

So, thank you, Jon, for guiding. Pretty easy-peasy, really. Thank you.
So, anything can happen next, I guess, but do you have any further pointers or suggestions?

Cheers! <3

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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby JonathanR » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:23 am

Hi Mary Susan
Truly gotten could feel like anything. Why should it feel any particular way?
There is some sort of relief. Negative thoughts don't seem so sticky at the moment.
Perhaps there was expectation - more elation, more joy perhaps.
But that can arise and fall away like any other thought or feeling passing through.
Right.
Hmmm! Really! I guess that this is it. This is the seeing. This is the crossing of the Gateless Gate.
This is it. Actually, it is quite fabulous to just sink into that.
Lovely. How does it seem today?
So, thank you, Jon, for guiding. Pretty easy-peasy, really. Thank you.
So, anything can happen next, I guess, but do you have any further pointers or suggestions?
You're very welcome indeed.

Just to be thorough I want to ask you a few questions. This may strike you as unnecessary, perhaps, but please have a go at answering them?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

All the best,

Jon

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Mary Susan
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Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby Mary Susan » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:28 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No, there has never been, is not and will never be a separate entity "self, me, I" anywhere, running the show in any shape or form. There's just the mind telling various stories, feelings arising, stories and feeling falling away. There is no doer. Everything just arises, just happens, and there's no Mary at the helm of life. There's no-one to take credit or discredit for anything because nothing is really happening.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is the sticking to a story, to a belief that arises in the mind that says there is a person who is good, bad, clever, stupid, wrong, right, intelligent, ignorant, responsible for such and such, irresponsible for such and such, whatever. It's the belief that there is an actor who is deciding things and making things happen, a belief, a thought, that there is someone (Mary or someone else) who is directing the show.

Everything, absolutely everything is a story. It's what the mind does - create narratives. "I, me, mine, self" is at the centre of this narrative. Illusion is believing in a character who is on some sort of journey in life, with a past, present and future. The character believes that things are done to them (victim story) or they are on track and steering the boat (hero of the story). But, it is just a story.

Seeing that blinking is done, breathing is done, digestion is done without a self at the helm shows that there's nobody there. Seeing through the eyes just happens, sitting and standing, walking, swimming, dressing oneself, bathing, wiping the bum, driving the car, crossing the road, typing this out all just happens. Thoughts may arise to construct a sentence and another thought may arise to edit a word, delete a typo or whatever, but the action just happens or not.

Illusion starts when thoughts arise creating a past, present or future in which a character named Mary is the agent of "her" life and views other people and things as separate to her, either obstacles to contend with or instruments to held "her" on "her" way.

Illusion continues when thoughts and feelings arise that are uncomfortable for a character named Mary who struggles with more thoughts and feelings about why something is happening, how reality "should be", how to manipulate a situation to make it better or more satisfactory for "her."

Illusion is the feeling and/or thought that the present isn't satisfactory, can be better, should be made better, and there's a mental and physical scrambling around to adjust things to "her" liking.

Illusion is gone when there's acceptance of what is, when there's a flow and not a jarring experience of life.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
Feelings and thoughts still arise, flow and disappear. There's nothing Earth shattering about this. There's something very ordinary about it. There's the realization that there have been periods like this before, when life feels simple, when thoughts are not so volatile, when thoughts don't stick, when the body feels more relaxed, when there's an acceptance of whatever, when there seems to be more noticing of the outside world (flowers, trees, houses, gardens, the sky, shadows, reflections, everything stands out more). There's more awareness and appreciation of surroundings, more curiosity of visual stimulus, a non-ownership of feelings, thoughts and actions. No feelings of struggle, striving. Of course, there's no expectation that it will stay like this. Negative thoughts and feelings may arise again. How sticky they will be remains to be seen. Who knows? No-one. It's just energy passing through. Like the weather, energy changes.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Not sure, but you kept making me focus on who could possibly be there to control anything, do anything. You didn't respond to my ponderings, ideas, knowledge, trimmings. You just kept bringing me back to what could be found, what could be seen, experienced. Basically, there wasn't a self that could be found who was in charge of thoughts and actions. Actions just arise. Thoughts just arise. If someone was in charge I'd be able to choose to have only positive thoughts and feelings. /quote]

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
A decision is a story where Mary or another "character" takes credit for a thought that arose in the mind that led to an action that Mary or the "character" also takes credit for. Intention is also just thought(s), a story. Free will is a story about how humans are the authors of their actions; that humans choose what to do or not do. Choice and control are stories what a person believes they are the owner of their thoughts and actions and/or non-actions.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
God knows! Lol! I don't believe in God - I just mean I haven't the foggiest idea. Who does? Who could? Things just arise and fall away. Of course, a story about chemistry, genetics, DNA, neurobiology, God, the soul, spirit, ghost in the machine or whatever may come forth as an explanation but generally it is just a spouting of something that has been heard or read, and whose to say maybe some (or all) of it's true, but probably it isn't. Science and religion are stories too, with various interpretations that get changed over time. Most things are a mystery and will always be so. Humans create narratives and the narratives just get bigger and bigger and bigger.
c) What are you responsible for?
Bloody nothing. Thank God for that! Lol!
d) Give examples from experience.
Farting, hiccups, vomiting, shitting, pissing, sweating, dreaming, THINKING AND YET MORE THINKING. Bloody EVERYTHING.

6) Anything to add?
What a relief! What freedom! But a little voice says, "Nah, you're kidding. Is this really it? So easy-peasy." But another little voice says, "Yup! This is all it is. It's everything and nothing. No-ones in charge of the show." What a scream, eh?!

Sayonara!
Ciou for Now!
Mary <3

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Beginner's Mind

Postby JonathanR » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:06 am

Hi Mary,

What fantastic answers! Great to read.

I will post later today.

All the best

Jon


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