I am therefore I think.

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:07 pm

If there were, they'd be having thoughts too and thoughts don't think.
Very good point.
Nope, there is no good and bad. These are just more concepts made up by thought to label other concepts... This is not to say that certain actions shouldn't be avoided, just that the idea of right or wrong is purely conceptual.
Right. There is no word which isn't also a concept. Which is proven by we are not able to just a word. There is an image (thought), and immediately everything we connect with it.
Try it. Just think apple. What happens?

Lets have a look at something else, at sensation. They can be found in DE and are labeld, could be described as physical feelings, like for example a pressure in the stomach region. So far so good, right, do you agree?

What are emotions?

Love,
Jadzia

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:51 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Thanks for the quick replies!
lets have a look at something else, at sensation. They can be found in DE and are labeld, could be described as physical feelings, like for example a pressure in the stomach region. So far so good, right, do you agree?
yes, agreed. There is currently a feeling of pressure on my legs caused by sitting on a chair. I notice a dull ache in my shoulders where I am carrying some tension. I can (almost) sense these without labelling them, but the monkey mind kicks in and pops up words like stress, tension, pain etc.
What are emotions?
Hmmmm. I know on an intellectual level that they are 'sensations' brought about by chemical reactions in the brain causing neurons to fire in certain regions. So feeling happy causes the neurotransmitter dopamine to be released etc. (or vice-versa).

But... on a DE level then an emotion is usually just perceived as a subtle pressure in the body; sometimes in the chest or belly if it's a negative emotion and sometimes near the heart if it's positive.

I understand these emotions are all fully automatic and happen on their own in response to other thoughts (or sometimes artificial substances like alcohol etc.) So I suppose an emotion is sensed as a series of thoughts? I'm trying to work out if feelings can be sensed without thinking about them..... not entirely sure.

I'll see what happens next time I get a strong emotion..

Thanks,
Roger

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:44 pm

Here comes a point to look at carefully:
There is currently a feeling of pressure on my legs caused by sitting on a chair. I notice a dull ache in my shoulders where I am carrying some tension.
What is there? A sensation, right? Then labelling happens.
Can you be 100% sure that the labels of sensations are acurate, 100% coming from that what thoughts describe?

Intellectual levels, tsk. Emotions and intellect so don't get together...lol.
on a DE level then an emotion is usually just perceived as a subtle pressure in the body; sometimes in the chest or belly if it's a negative emotion and sometimes near the heart if it's positive.
Hm, so lets say
emotion = sensation (in something called body)+ thought (label) .
You agree? Or is something missing?


Little experiment:
Choose a nice place where you can sit well for 10 to 15 minutes.
Please breathe in and out for a few times, settle in a shape and decide not to heed what thoughts talk about for a while.
That done, allow yourself to become aware of body.
When you feel the body become aware of physical sensations.
Just observe, if a label pops up, allow one word, not more.
Take the first sensation appearing in awareness. Be gentle, no inner staring!
What happens?
Is there more than one sensation?
If no, are they all fixed ore are they moving around?
Sensing your body, is your body a closed off thing? Or is it more open?
Are there only sensation in what is called body?

Enjoy the trip into the world of sensations. Come back with what you find and we move on.

Love
Jadzia

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:10 am

Hi Jadzia,
Can you be 100% sure that the labels of sensations are acurate, 100% coming from that what thoughts describe?
No. The sensations are just that. Without the label they cannot be accurately described. There is an awareness of something but that is all. The labels just make it easier to tell another person how it feels.
emotion = sensation (in something called body)+ thought (label) .
You agree? Or is something missing?
I think something is missing. Some emotions are more than just a feeling or sensation. If you feel great on a beautiful day then your outlook is positive and happy. There’s a euphoria that isn’t a physical sensation but just a change in behaviour. It’s purely a mental thing. No sensations or thoughts required 🙂
Is there more than one sensation?
If no, are they all fixed ore are they moving around?
Sensing your body, is your body a closed off thing? Or is it more open?
Are there only sensation in what is called body?
There seems to be more than one sensation. They are fixed in their locations and there is lots of ‘space’ around them. There is no concept of a’body’, just different sensations floating around in space. Quite a nice experiment and very relaxing!

An additional observation: while looking in the mirror this morning I was thinking that I should probably be seeing “an image made of coloured shapes”. However what I saw was a person that was moving separate from the background and also moving limbs when I choose to move them. For me this is is still a powerful indication that I am a separate person existing in an environment. How can I shake this concept?

Many thanks,
Roger

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:58 pm

The sensations are just that. Without the label they cannot be accurately described. There is an awareness of something but that is all. The labels just make it easier to tell another person how it feels.
Yes, labels, words are useful for communication.
I think something is missing. Some emotions are more than just a feeling or sensation. If you feel great on a beautiful day then your outlook is positive and happy. There’s a euphoria that isn’t a physical sensation but just a change in behaviour. It’s purely a mental thing. No sensations or thoughts required
Are some emotions more than just a feeling or sensation or is it a thought saying so?
Is there no physical sensation in euphoria?
No deeper breathing or something that is labeled wideness, openess, positive or happy?
while looking in the mirror this morning I was thinking that I should probably be seeing “an image made of coloured shapes”.
Most people don't.

Lets stay a moment longer with emotions and later on we will look at background, movement and so on, ok?

Love,
Jadzia

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:20 am

Are some emotions more than just a feeling or sensation or is it a thought saying so?
Is there no physical sensation in euphoria?
No deeper breathing or something that is labeled wideness, openess, positive or happy?
I guess now you come to say that then yes, there is a set of actions that go with feeling positive; deeper breathing, the feeling that all is right with the world etc. These don't need labels to be felt though, but I suppose at their most basic level they are just sensations. They seem to be caused by external events and situations and there is no 'choice' about feeling them. Sometimes I will get emotional over a good film and it's certainly not 'me' doing that, it just happens instinctively.

Everything seems to be just sensation. If you discount the labels then all there is is sensations. Interesting...

Thanks,
R

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:36 am

They seem to be caused by external events and situations and there is no 'choice' about feeling them.
Caused by would mean that there is cause and effect. Is it so?
If there is a cause than one should be able to find a connection in DE, via senses. If nothing is found via senses, it is thought, right.

Go have a look.
A book or a film can be what is called the cause of a certain emotion, happiness, sadness or whatever.
Have a look at an emotion where thought tells "This comes from this or that" - can any connection be found between the outward so called trigger and the emotion, only DE please?

Love,
Jadzia

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:58 am

Hi Jadzia,
Caused by would mean that there is cause and effect. Is it so?
If there is a cause than one should be able to find a connection in DE, via senses. If nothing is found via senses, it is thought, right.
Just to clarify, when you say 'thought' you mean a subvocal conversation in my head right? i.e. I am speaking words/labels to myself?
I only ask because in some cases there is no need for words/labels, it is just 'known'. If I feel an emotional response to a beautiful sunrise, or a beautiful woman or a piece of great art (to name but a few), then I don't say to myself 'wow! what a sunrise'. I already know for sure that I like it before I start subvocalising.
So I tend to disagree that 'If nothing is found via physical senses then it is thought'. I believe we respond to a lot of stimuli long before thought has kicked-in. If I whack my hand with a hammer (cause) then there is pain (effect) before I think about it and I believe the same is true for an emotion. If I see a puppy I feel sensations of affection/love/play etc. without thought.
Only then will I perhaps say to myself "how cute"...If the cause was not present, there'd be no effect. It seems to me that the connection is implied even if not directly 'seen'..?

R
x

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:50 pm

Just to clarify, when you say 'thought' you mean a subvocal conversation in my head right? i.e. I am speaking words/labels to myself?
Who is speaking to whom?
Do you find a speaker or a listener?

Thought is the information given by words.
Thought come and go partly in light speed.
Can one be sure that all thoughts are noticed?
If I see a puppy I feel sensations of affection/love/play etc. without thought.
Strictly speaking an emotion is something fabricated. There is a sensation, this gets labeled, and how it is labeled is learned.
What you describe affection/love/play this sounds like a memory kicking in, an association connected to puppy, which is thought.

Big question and do really check via DE and not via thinking about:
Does a sensation know about the emotion it is supposed to be?
Does the label know about what it labels, say, does a label know what happiness is?

Love,
Jadzia

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm

Who is speaking to whom?
Do you find a speaker or a listener?
No not at all, this is just a figure of speech. Thoughts are just 'there'
Can one be sure that all thoughts are noticed?
Noticed by who? Thoughts seem to be lesser internal versions of sensations. By this I mean, sometimes 'heard', sometimes 'seen' (imagination). There is never an awareness of them 'starting' they just happen. So if they are not 'noticed' then by definition they haven't happened. It's almost as if they are brought into existence by the noticing of them. (I should stress that there is no 'noticer' involved in this. I am not watching thoughts.)
Strictly speaking an emotion is something fabricated. There is a sensation, this gets labeled, and how it is labeled is learned.
What you describe affection/love/play this sounds like a memory kicking in, an association connected to puppy, which is thought.
Yep, I see this now. It's a learned response to a sensation in the body. However these sensations we're labelling 'emotions' are very real and present right from birth, before memories are laid down. Newborn babies laugh when they are happy and they don't learn this behaviour, they are born with it. Yes we might give it the label 'happiness', but that doesn't mean it's not a valid sensation. My dogs are always smiling when they are happy and I can tell when they are sad etc. I did not teach them to do this, it's innate and very real. The label is fabricated, the emotion (sensation) is real in my opinion.
Does a sensation know about the emotion it is supposed to be?
Does the label know about what it labels, say, does a label know what happiness is?
No, absolutely not. This is understood. Labels are just labels. So long as we accept that the thing being labelled is happening, what we call it is irrelevant. It's all sensations in DE. I had a good look yesterday at 'feelings' and I was wrong, they DO have a physical sensation that is sensed. i.e. they are not there before the sensation occurs

Many thanks,
Roger

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:05 pm

I had a good look yesterday at 'feelings' and I was wrong, they DO have a physical sensation that is sensed. i.e. they are not there before the sensation occurs
Does a feeling have a sensation?
Does a sensation know about a feeling or a feeling about a sensation?
Do look and think about!

Love,
Jadzia

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:13 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Does a feeling have a sensation?
Does a sensation know about a feeling or a feeling about a sensation?
Do look and think about!
Sorry, I think I didn't make it clear before. :-)

What I mean is that there aren't both feelings and sensations. As far as I can tell there are just sensations. The labelling as 'feelings' comes later. So a feeling can't have a sensation, a feeling is just a sensation with a label.

Best,
Roger

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:39 pm

So a feeling can't have a sensation, a feeling is just a sensation with a label.
Ok.

If you have the time make it your habit that when a question comes to look again and not refer to memory, to what you have learned by looking before. You might find that each and every of the topics have a deeper and deeper layer to get.
An additional observation: while looking in the mirror this morning I was thinking that I should probably be seeing “an image made of coloured shapes”. However what I saw was a person that was moving separate from the background and also moving limbs when I choose to move them. For me this is is still a powerful indication that I am a separate person existing in an environment. How can I shake this concept?
Lets start unraveling part of it, a bigger part of this is for after gating, by a little exercise.
Choose an object nearby which you are not able to touch and look at it.
Describe what you see.
When done describe the back.

Love,
Jadzia

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:55 am

Hi Jadzia,

Sorry for the late reply, it's been a manic week at work.
Choose an object nearby which you are not able to touch and look at it.
Describe what you see.
When done describe the back.
I picked a fruit bowl for this exercise. When I look at it I see forms and colours and light and shade. If I have both eyes open I get a definite sense of depth to the object, with the background being further away. However if I close one eye so I can only see in 2D, then there is no separation of foreground and background, just positive and negative shapes. Although I know I'm looking at a 'bowl', it's quite easy to ignore this label and just see the shapes and colours. (it helps being an artist and knowing this technique from years of training).

This exercise is harder if the foreground objects are moving. For example if I look at a tree moving in the breeze, it's much more obvious that it is in front of it's static background. In this case it's colours and movement.

R

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Jadzia
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:22 pm

And the back. Were you able to describe the back? And how comes?
However if I close one eye so I can only see in 2D, then there is no separation of foreground and background, just positive and negative shapes.
Beautiful.
However what I saw was a person that was moving separate from the background and also moving limbs when I choose to move them.
How is it known that there is movement?

Movement includes the idea of time, of something that starts, covers some time and then ends, a before and after, right?
Have a look:
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love,
Jadzia


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