I am therefore I think.

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:33 am

Hi Jadzia,
And the back. Were you able to describe the back? And how comes?
I guess you mean the background? If so then there is no real difference between foreground and background other than a change in colour and tone. A contrast between shapes. Foreground and Background are again just concepts/labels.
How is it known that there is movement?
Movement includes the idea of time, of something that starts, covers some time and then ends, a before and after, right?
Have a look:
Actually I have never believed that time exists. It's just a concept that is used to describe changes in events and movement. Because we know that there is change, we assume there must be time, but there is no actual experience of a thing that is time.
However, I do believe there is movement. Reality to me seems to be experienced as a constantly changing dance of energy. Everything is moving on some level, even down to the vibration of atoms. If I stand in front of a moving car, I'm going to get squashed. So movement is definitely happening, but I don't see that it has a beginning and end, there is just 'flow' from one seeming event to the next.

Actually there is no 'one event to the next'. There are no 'events' as there is no way of finding a definite start or finish. This feeling of movement/change is different for each person (experiencer). For some it is fast for some it is slow but it's all just change...

Also, there is no 'present moment'. That too would imply that there are other moments than the present one. Not so. There are no moments. Just a constant movement of energy.

Fun stuff!

R

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:02 pm

I guess you mean the background?
No, the back of the object is meant in this exercise.
Please repeat the exercise - check only in your direct experience and drop all knowledge - simply do it again with a beginners mind.
Here it is, I added a bit to freshen it up:
Choose an object nearby which you are not able to touch and look at it.
Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look, nothing else.

Done?

Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
What does this tell you about how thoughts work?
Reality to me seems to be experienced as a constantly changing dance of energy. Everything is moving on some level, even down to the vibration of atoms.
None of this is direct experience. You want to leave the realms of seems to be, that's what I learned and follow, or?

So could you please redo the time exercise, same way: beginners mind!
This investigation isn't about the knowledge you already have or about believing - it is about direct experience.
In case you are not 100% what DE is, we can have a look again.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Please answer each question individually.

Love
Christina

User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:33 am

Hi Jadzia
No, the back of the object is meant in this exercise.
LOL... Sorry, my misunderstanding.. D'oh!
Choose an object nearby which you are not able to touch and look at it.
Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look, nothing else.

Done?

Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
What does this tell you about how thoughts work?


So, continuing from earlier; When I look at an object all I can really see are shapes and colours and some tonal differences.
- I cannot describe the back of the object as there is no direct evidence that there is a back.
- It is not known what the back looks like as that would be relying on memory and guesswork, not what I actually see.
- There is no evidence that the object is 3d. There is light and shade that gives the impression of a 3d form, but this could also be an illusion and would rely again on memory and assumptions, so not what is truly being observed.
- This confirms what we have already discovered, that thoughts are not reality but are based on memory.
We cannot be certain that anything we think or even observe/sense is real. It doesn't matter of course. Stuff is happening without being 'observed' by anyone. The idea that there is a 'person' seeing anything is also just an illusion.

As requested I will answer the other questions individually but I am struggling a bit with this exercise. It is still seen as it was before and its difficult to describe using 'conventional' words:
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
No, there is no 'moving along a line' and there are no 'moments'. There are no events that follow other events. There's just what is arising.
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
There is no speed of a present moment. I can't experience a present moment different from any other. There is no 'timeline'
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
Again. I struggle with this as I don't see a 'moment'. Sorry.
How long does the ‘now’ last?
It is always 'now'. It doesn't 'last' as it's no happening in 'time'.
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
Same as before. It doesn't start and end because it doesn't exist
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
The 'past' is a memory arising in thought
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
There is no actual experience of 'time' as there is no progression of what is happening. No timeline.
Thoughts about time are just that, a convenient way to make plans etc. but they are arising 'now' (this isn't the right word as there is no actual now but you know what I mean).

I feel like I'm repeating myself here but this is what I am seeing in DE. I will keep trying to look harder :-)

Many Thanks,
R

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:12 pm

Thank you, now I do know we are on the same page, :-).
It is not known what the back looks like as that would be relying on memory and guesswork, not what I actually see.
Right, this is an important something to keep in mind, well in whatever..., thoughts don't take blanks - all blanks will always be filled, as you wrote with memory or guessing.
This is one of the points why checking if one can really know something is important. Works for all identifications and beliefs.
There is no speed of a present moment. I can't experience a present moment different from any other. There is no 'timeline'
Right.
I struggle with this as I don't see a 'moment'. Sorry.
No need to be sorry, I can't find this thingy either....
It is always 'now'. It doesn't 'last' as it's no happening in 'time
Now is a concept, or? No one ever saw, smelled, heard and so on, a now.
Same as before. It doesn't start and end because it doesn't exist
Same as above, now is a concept.
The 'past' is a memory arising in thought
Allow me to ask though I am sure what answer will appear:
What about future?
There is no actual experience of 'time' as there is no progression of what is happening. No timeline.
Thoughts about time are just that, a convenient way to make plans etc. but they are arising 'now' (this isn't the right word as there is no actual now but you know what I mean).
Yip.
Though is plan making needed for action to happen in a good way, and who would need a special outcome?

Now there is no time, what about distance?
Foreground/Background? Movement?

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:25 am

Hi Jadzia,

Thanks. I feel I made a little breakthrough there. Your question about looking for a beginning and end to the concept of present moment was a real 'ah-ha' moment. Blimey! its hard to write a sentence without all these little concepts popping up. I can see how language conditions people into believing stuff that's not there :-)

By the way me putting inverted commas around words, like 'this' means I am using a concept word even though I know it's not what it seems..
What about future?
There is no future. There would only be thoughts projecting possibilities using memories. All of them arising now.
Now there is no time, what about distance?
Foreground/Background? Movement?
There still seems to be distance. I am sitting in a chair and I cannot reach the wall, so even though there is no time, there is still distance. Oh! hang on! .... Maybe there isn't. All there is is one shape moving past another shape. There's no real point of reference without thought filling in concepts. When I look to see where 'I' am relative to the wall, there's nothing here. I seem to have no head!!! eek!
So actually all I can be sure of is that colours are changing in the shapes. It's convenient to call this 'movement' but that too is a concept. Colours are changing... Wow! this is cool. So background is just fuzzy defocussed colours next to sharp defined colours.

This is going to be freaky when I have to do another piece of artwork :-)

Thanks again. Even if this isn't what you meant, its really cool to see like this!

Cheers,
Roger

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:01 pm

I can see how language conditions people into believing stuff that's not there :-)
Yes, a lot of what we call understanding is just conditioning from an early point on.
There still seems to be distance. I am sitting in a chair and I cannot reach the wall, so even though there is no time, there is still distance. Oh! hang on! .... Maybe there isn't. All there is is one shape moving past another shape. There's no real point of reference without thought filling in concepts. When I look to see where 'I' am relative to the wall, there's nothing here. I seem to have no head!!! eek!
So actually all I can be sure of is that colours are changing in the shapes. It's convenient to call this 'movement' but that too is a concept. Colours are changing... Wow! this is cool. So background is just fuzzy defocussed colours next to sharp defined colours.
Erm, there is nothing wrong with being headless. ;-)

Two little experiments to go on with this trail:

1. Put your hand onto a table or on something else.
Close your eyes.
Breathe in an out.
Sense!
Is there a hand and a table, two whatever?
Or is there a handtable, one whatever?

2. Lay down, bed, sofa, where ever you like.
Thoughts will do their describing job, of what is, what is felt and so on. All is well, no need to heed it.
Breathe in deeply, breather out deeply.
Looking you see a ceiling and thought tells of a distance between body and ceiling.
Now close your eyes.
Focus on the space between body and ceiling.
Share what you find.


Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:48 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Is there a hand and a table, two whatever?
Or is there a handtable, one whatever?
There is no hand and a table. There is not even a handtable, there is just a sensation of pressure mixed in with the pressure of backside on chair and feet on floor. It's all one feeling. There is not even a sense of location, i.e. it's not where my hands were, its just 'pressure'.
Focus on the space between body and ceiling.
Share what you find.
When I close my eyes I am then using memory to visualise the space. I 'see' nothing, just darkness. I can't be sure that the ceiling is still there. I have no 'body' to be distant from the wall, only thoughts of one and sensations of pressure from lying down. There is certainly no sense of distance when eyes are shut.

Thanks
Roger

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:10 pm

There is no hand and a table. There is not even a handtable, there is just a sensation of pressure mixed in with the pressure of backside on chair and feet on floor. It's all one feeling. There is not even a sense of location, i.e. it's not where my hands were, its just 'pressure'.
Do I get it right, there are just sensation labeled pressure.
With closed eyes can it be known that there is a backside of a chair and feet and a floor?
We are not interested in what thoughts tell here, so don't refer to memory aka thought.
When I close my eyes I am then using memory to visualise the space. I 'see' nothing, just darkness. I can't be sure that the ceiling is still there. I have no 'body' to be distant from the wall, only thoughts of one and sensations of pressure from lying down. There is certainly no sense of distance when eyes are shut.
Who is 'using' memory - is there a someone doing so or what exactly appears?
Look deeper are there only sensation called pressure?
When laying still with closed eyes, right no body, no ceiling in DE, right?
And no sense of distance when eyes are shut, what about open eyes, how is it known that there is a distance?

It might be a good idea to repeat the exercise several times and to allow less and less thought comittment and just stretch ones senses - inner and outer ones.

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:49 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Sorry, what I was trying to say was that there is ONLY the sensation of pressure. No chair, no feet, no body. Just the sensation. (and no locations either, the sensation is all one thing)
Who is 'using' memory - is there a someone doing so or what exactly appears?
Look deeper are there only sensation called pressure?
When laying still with closed eyes, right no body, no ceiling in DE, right?
And no sense of distance when eyes are shut, what about open eyes, how is it known that there is a distance?
Again, no DE of any person here experiencing these sensations. There are only the sensations. No distance with eyes closed, no ceiling, no body.
With eyes open distance is seen because I have two eyes, so 3d stereo vision. It's not a label or concept, it's a direct experience of depth (i.e. depth perception). I don't need to think about it to perceive it. It is just known.
Of course if I close one eye, then there is no perception of distance and it cannot be known unless memory is used.
It might be a good idea to repeat the exercise several times and to allow less and less thought comittment and just stretch ones senses - inner and outer ones.
I will. It's a very interesting exercise.

Thank you!
Roger

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:20 pm

With eyes open distance is seen because I have two eyes, so 3d stereo vision.
Well, you might be astonished one day. ;-)
An additional observation: while looking in the mirror this morning I was thinking that I should probably be seeing “an image made of coloured shapes”. However what I saw was a person that was moving separate from the background and also moving limbs when I choose to move them. For me this is is still a powerful indication that I am a separate person existing in an environment. How can I shake this concept?
Take everything we discussed and what you found the past days and check, can you shake this concept now?
What exactly is seen in DE and what is added by thoughts/memory/learned stuff?
Doubt memory, doubt what you learned, doubt thoughts content!
It is not easy but for a moment drop everything you ever learned and believed to be fact or true.

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:30 am

Hi Jadzia,
Take everything we discussed and what you found the past days and check, can you shake this concept now?
What exactly is seen in DE and what is added by thoughts/memory/learned stuff?
Doubt memory, doubt what you learned, doubt thoughts content!
I'm definitely getting there, when I look in the mirror I can see that in DE there is just a flat plane of colours and shapes as we saw in the last exercises. I cannot know, without thought, that I am seeing anything more than that.
I am struggling a little with the fact that the image in the mirror is responding to this body's actions. If I move, then the reflection (colour & shape) changes, so it feels like there's a connection. It also very hard to look at the eyes and not feel like I'm looking at 'my' eyes. i.e. the eyes of this body/mind unit. I realise these feelings are due to thoughts, but that doesn't stop them. I will try and drop all thoughts every time I look in a mirror and see if anything shifts.
It is not easy but for a moment drop everything you ever learned and believed to be fact or true.
This is the most difficult part for me. Some things are true even if we try and see them in a different way. For example some people believe in God, but that is not truth, it is faith and does not require proof. They 'assume' there is a god but could never prove it. There is no experience if it, just assumptions. However if we look at 'movement', it's pretty easy to drop an apple on the floor and assume it must have moved to get there, regardless of direct experience. So even though technically it can't be proved, it has to be assumed as there is irrefutable evidence that the apple has changed its location. Whether you believe it to be true or not, if I drop an anvil on your head like in a cartoon, you are going to get squashed. So for me 'truth' is a very hard thing to drop... I see that these are thoughts and concepts, but they are arising, so its really hard to ignore them. :-(

I am trying though :-)

Thanks,
Roger

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:34 am

The tricky thing for many of us is to get past the conditioning off intellectual rational thinking, past the pride we used to have how smart we are, how much we learned and how much we know. In this kind of investigation the principle that "there is always a provable reason behind something and if we can't prove it we will one day" really can get into the way of seeing what is.
Simplicity, childrens' innocence and curiosity is what is needed. Even a bit of relaxation and sure lots of humor.
It just needs a moment of giving up: Hey, so what? I can't really know anything!"
This is what we do with pointing to direct experience.
It also very hard to look at the eyes and not feel like I'm looking at 'my' eyes. i.e. the eyes of this body/mind unit.
Consider what thoughts tell about me, mine - all the "my car".... " my skies"..."my dog"...."my feelings".
This is a whole assortment of a lot of different things or beings.
With no entity found, no controler, thinker, decider, action maker where do all these me, my, mine point to?

Is there a body/mind unit in DE? Close your eyes. Can you be sure that there is anything else but sensations?
I see that these are thoughts and concepts, but they are arising, so its really hard to ignore them. :-(
Ignoring doesn't really work, thoughts are there and with thoughts all the concepts, just try not to heed them too much. Notice them, "Fine, hello you are here, thank you." and let them ramble and do your looking. They are just doing their job and the job is keeping you safe and protected, even if it means keeping you encaged, which is verrrrry safe and protected. :-)

Please answer all question individually. Always from now on.

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:51 am

Hi Jadzia,

I wanted to edit that earlier post but this forum doesn't allow it.

Just to add. I went up to clean my teeth after writing all that and while looking in the mirror I realised that there was nobody here looking at the reflection! There was a reflection but on this side of the mirror there was just space! Suddenly all that stuff I wrote was irrelevant. Another 'ah-ha' moment.


I will get to the other questions soon. I do not see a body/mind unit when I close my eyes but I didn't know how else to describe what I thought I saw :-)

R

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:06 am

Beautiful - go on like that!

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
rojharris
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:21 am

Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:28 am

With no entity found, no controler, thinker, decider, action maker where do all these me, my, mine point to?
Good point! Again, language is fooling us into believing something is there when there is nothing. They point to nothing but concepts. So simple when looked at.
Is there a body/mind unit in DE? Close your eyes. Can you be sure that there is anything else but sensations?
Nope, just sensations and shapes. For convenience sake 'body' can be used as a label for a bunch of sensations but it is just a label. Also, there is no evidence of a mind. I couldn't even define a mind if I tried :-) . There is nothing processing anything here.

Good stuff!

R


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest