Hi

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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mpsi
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Hi

Postby mpsi » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:04 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is a universal presence in which all points of view are equally valid. I'm a part of it, but I am (evolutionary?) tricked to see exclusively my subjective point of view by the way my brain works. There is also an identity constructed by the brain to keep justifying my exclusive point of view as something special and to keep feeling consistent

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel that in recent few months I came closer than ever before to the realization of the inherent non-dual reality, and my state of mind changed a lot, but I still struggle to actually get into this state. LU, as I understand, advertises itself as a way to achieve it quickly with a guidance of someone who knows it, and I am willing to try it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I want to try it. I do not expect anything describable yet, but my purpose is to lift the metaphorical veil from my eyes. I understand that I will be asked questions and there will be a conversation, and I think that this kind of interaction may be helpful for me in achieving this goal.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I'm 41. I'm Polish. The idea of a possibility of the enlightenment formed in me in my teen years. I was attracted to the taoism as a thought system with its simple poetic beauty to the point that I decided to study sinology. Later I moved to China and lived there for 15 years. While this experience has been a great adventure and redefined me to much extent, it was not a spiritual quest per se, except in the initial phase of the fascination with the taoism.
I tried to meditate by myself for a long time, but only in recent few years I was able to do it more or less consistently (simple mindfulness meditation with the focus on breath).
I have never sought any formal spiritual guidance, a teacher or guru before.
I got most spiritual insights from books and articles, and with the use of cannabis and LSD. During my very first LSD trip, which was a very strong and overwhelming experience, I clearly realized that I'm not a separate entity, but unseparable part of the enormous whole. With the use of the cannabis, which I smoked for many years, mostly with rather low intensity, I was able to see many different mental landscapes. I haven't used cannabis for about six months though.
Few years ago my life clearly entered a new phase, and while my family grew (I have 3 kids now), I was stripped - for the most part quite forcibly - of most of the mental attachments. I feel light and basically naked now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:50 am

Hi mpsi,

my name is nina and I'm here to help you in the exploration of the concept of a separate self.

I there another name you would like me to address you?

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Just let me know when you are ready and we can get started.

All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:58 am

Hi nina!

Thank you very much for volunteering to guide me through this process. I've just reread all the links you posted and everything seems clear so far.

After having registered on the forum, I've read "Gateless Gatecrashers" and it appears I've made some progress in this no self business, to the point of feeling that I "got" it. However, under the stress of daily life the sense of self keeps coming back, although with less accompanying tension than before.

I have a question, maybe not an appropriate one: I noticed that my initial post seems to have been read many more times than posts of other newcomers. Was there some kind of discussion about it? What triggered the attention? Would it be beneficial if I clarified something?

You can call me Marcin, please.

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:23 pm

Dear Marcin,

welcome to LU!
Good you went through the gatecrashers book.
It is really inspiring. One realises that it doesn’t really take much just to look.

I’ve also seen that there was this large figure of visitors to your initial post and was wondering about that as well. No, there was no discussion as far as I know. I’ve no idea what that was.
Could have been also a technical issue.

By the way – it is always advisable to save your post in a medium on your device. (Word or whatever) Sometimes the page is not so stable, one never knows…good to have a copy saved.


Ok, but now let’s get started.

Take a fruit of your choice. For example an apple.

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure?
Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience. This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘.

What you know for sure, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:05 am

Dear nina,

Here are the results of my investigation of the apple problem:
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

When I see an apple, there is an actual sensory experience, direct and undeniable perception of some color and shape. But there is also a thick mesh of thoughts - not only a simple label "apple", but eg. also perception of it as an edible object, some preliminary evaluation of its size, taste, freshness etc. There may arise some emotions, eg. surprise ("why is the apple here?") or joy ("there is an apple here! I thought none was left!") or any other emotion depending on circumstances. All these thoughts arise very quickly after the sensory experience, almost simultaneously and quite often are to much degree unnoticed and unacknowledged consciously. And just like the apple which I see is just a part of the whole visual field, thoughts about it are also a part of the whole mental environment in a given moment.

Also, the brain seems to fill some gaps in perception and anticipate the input of other senses when seeing something, eg. when I see an apple and decide to reach for it with my hand I already "know" its weight. I once had a very peculiar experience with an artificial Christmas tree: in my childhood we always had a big real tree for Christmas in my family and of course I developed some strongly emotionanlly colored memories associated with it. Some time ago, after several years of not really celebrating Christmas I decided to buy a plastic Christmas tree. While it definitely looked like a Christmas tree, it was also very obvious that it wasn't a real one. But when I unpacked and started to assemble it I noticed very strong fragrance of a Christmas tree. I smelled the tree but the scent wasn't coming from it - it was a hallucination! It seems that my brain decided to fill a gap and to add the scent to the tree. The brain-made scent was there for quite a long time before finally slowly disappearing.

To sum it up: an apple is not known, and all the sensations coming from an apple are actually separate, but the brain, once it has enough input about former encounters with apples, once it is able to match the pattern with other patterns stored in the memory, acts as if it already had a lot of knowledge about any newly seen apple and connects and even bends to some degree the sensations felt when an apple is perceived.

Best,

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:56 pm

Dear Marcin,

thanks for all these well pondered investigations.
When I see an apple, there is an actual sensory experience, direct and undeniable perception of some color and shape.

The aim of this whole exercise was exactly this direct and undeniable perception. You rightly realised that there’s a lot of mental noise about the whole process of perception.
We’re going into the investigation of thought shortly.
For now a strong foundation in the direct experience has to build our basis first.
Some time ago, after several years of not really celebrating Christmas I decided to buy a plastic Christmas tree. While it definitely looked like a Christmas tree, it was also very obvious that it wasn't a real one. But when I unpacked and started to assemble it I noticed very strong fragrance of a Christmas tree. I smelled the tree but the scent wasn't coming from it - it was a hallucination! It seems that my brain decided to fill a gap and to add the scent to the tree. The brain-made scent was there for quite a long time before finally slowly disappearing.

Yes, isn’t that funny? We’re coming back to this experience a little later.


Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Taste
Colour/image
Sensation
Smell
Thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience)
and report back how you go. Please give some examples.

All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:59 pm

Hi nina,

I've been doing the exercise you requested and here is my report:

Unless my mind is very calm, which it wasn't yesterday nor today, at least 70% of attention goes to mental activity. Or even more - at moments getting aware of what I was looking at resembled trying to open a stuck window, because I had to remind myself forcefully and repeatedly to actually start looking at things, listen to them and so on. Somehow these two days weren't the best days to get calm and unfortunately for the most time in addition to normal sensations I was painfully aware of a not too strong but persistent headache. My mood was at moments disastrous. Strange thing is how quickly - in just few days - I fell from feeling free from self back to at moments hellish world full of self.

Here are 2 simple activities:

Taking a shower (I simplify it a little bit):
- a wall with white tiles a chrome tap and a pipe - image/color
- pleasant feeling of water all over my skin - seansations
- sound of water - sound
- smell of the shower wash - smell
- taste of toothpaste (I brushed the teeth before) - taste
- thoughts about my wife and children, thoughts acknowledging and labeling the above sensations - thoughts

Making scrambled egg:
- view of the kitchen and the eggs being fried, white and yellow - image/color
- sound of the eggs on the frying pan, voice of my daughter - sound
- smell of eggs and butter - smell
- aftertaste of coffee I just drank - taste
- my hand holding a spatula, moving to scramble the eggs, another hand holding the frying pan handle - sensations

I can give more examples if you deem it necessary. I also managed to keep noticing different sensations during interactions with other people. The discipline of this quiet exercise has slowly helped me to start getting back to a more normal mood.

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:32 am

Dear Marcin,

you’re doing very well and have a good grasp on direct experience. ( :

Just continue this exercise as much as possible during the day.
Please remark that thoughts are also just a sense impression.
See thoughts as simply thoughts.

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Taste
Colour/image
Sensation
Smell
Thought


Here is a thought exercise to get in closer touch with this:

Find 30 minutes to sit quietly and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying
and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice
if there is an organised sequence?

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content
from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Please answer these questions one by one.

All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:48 pm

Dear nina,

This is how I saw things while doing the 30-minutes exercise and afterwards:
Find 30 minutes to sit quietly and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying
and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
I only could find 30 minutes to sit quietly without interference just now. This is why I write a little bit late.
Where are they coming from and going to?
They form spontaneously in a kind of formless background, When not using any effort to try to control them, they seem scattered like clouds. However, for most time their emergence doesn't seem entirely effortless - there is some activity going on and thoughts are a product of this activity, like smoke coming from fire, or bubbles or foam from some kind of apparatus. The fire/apparatus itself remains unvisible though. All thoughts seem to come from this source. However, it's impossible to describe spatially the direction they come from - for example, it cannot be said that they come from a single point or from behind some kind of horizon.

The thoughts don't seem to go anywhere. They just fade away into the background or give way to other thoughts.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?


It seems there cannot be done anything to make particular thoughts appear. However, some thoughts can be somehow retained to interfere with emerging thoughts - e.g. when I got a task to describe how I feel about thoughts, the awareness of the task is a thought that welcomes and directs the streeam of incoming thoughts. But even when there is a very important task to do, the focus cannot be realiably maintained 100% of time. There are always some scattered stray thoughts on unrealted subjects.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?


No, they form by themselves. The only way to direct them seems to be with using "tasks" that direct the flow, as described above.
Can you predict your next thought?


No, I cannot. It seems illogical - I only can use thoughts to predict anything, if I could predict my thought, it would mean it could appear before actually appearing.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No, I cannot. I can set up a task "to think about pleasant things", but occasionally (or often, dependent on circumstances) there will also come some unpleasant thoughts as well.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No. Definitely not at the moment they are arising. However, just like with physical pain, I cannot choose to stop feeling them, but I can use some action to alleviate them and avoid their emergence in the future. I can use some mental "tasks" - retained thoughts, as described above, or even some physical action, e.g. I can go for a walk to elevate mood and in this way get some more positive thoughts and less negative ones.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
I can use "tasks" to direct what appears to be the stream of thoughts. When I have a task, e.g. "think about elks", at least some of my thoughts will start to concern elks, certainly more frequently than usual.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
The thought is visible only after it has already appeared, therefore it cannot be prevented.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice
if there is an organised sequence?
No, they are basically random. Two thoughts put together seem to have a common topic - and yes, it must be just another thought. However, this topic, if maintained, can color subsequent thoughts and they seem to form a structure.
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content
from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

It seems that for me the easiest way to obtain what seems to be a sequence of thoughts is when I expect a result of thinking (it's of course a kind of what I called a "task"). Also, there are patterns in language communication between humans that form sequences. We learn and emulate them mostly uncosciously and apply them to our thoughts.

Best regards,

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:53 pm

Dear Marcin,
I only could find 30 minutes to sit quietly without interference just now.
This is why I write a little bit late.

Good you found the time. No need to rush here. ( :
All thoughts seem to come from this source.

So we have to find out what this source may be.
It seems there cannot be done anything to make particular thoughts appear. However, some thoughts can be somehow retained to interfere with emerging thoughts - e.g. when I got a task to describe how I feel about thoughts, the awareness of the task is a thought that welcomes and directs the streeam of incoming thoughts. But even when there is a very important task to do, the focus cannot be realiably maintained 100% of time. There are always some scattered stray thoughts on unrealted subjects.

Is there a controller that controls thought?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
I can use "tasks" to direct what appears to be the stream of thoughts. When I have a task, e.g. "think about elks", at least some of my thoughts will start to concern elks, certainly more frequently than usual.

Is that really so? Or does thought suggest that?

What we are trying to find out here is whether, or not you are the author of thoughts, or whether ANYTHING is authoring thoughts. The second thing that should be noticed is whether thought is aware of what it says, or not. Once you are sure of the answers to those questions, the differences between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to ACTUALLY be, will reveal themselves.
No, they are basically random. Two thoughts put together seem to have a common topic - and yes, it must be just another thought. However, this topic, if maintained, can color subsequent thoughts and they seem to form a structure.

Random or a formed structure? Who is forming this structure?
Also, there are patterns in language communication between humans that form sequences. We learn and emulate them mostly unconsciously and apply them to our thoughts.

Right, these patterns had been leaned. But do they have any connection to the actual experience?
Do these learned structures tell anything about reality?

For a while take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 


Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.

Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.

And notice that you're not making them happen.

You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.

And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.

You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Just stay with this for the day.
It can be practiced in silence as well as during daily routines.

All the best

nina.
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:23 pm

Dear nina,

I'm very thankful for your time. I think I'm starting to get more glimpses of what the reality seems naturally to be, but it is still far from a clear view, therefore I can't help but fill the gaps with some speculation. I've been doing the exercise you recommended and have been generally trying to be mindful of what happens now and here.
All thoughts seem to come from this source.

So we have to find out what this source may be.

Perhaps I'm complicating things unnecessary, but this is how I see this problem now: the source of thoughts can be called mind. It produces thoughts in response to what is perceived. The mind itself is not aware nor visible to awareness. The mind uses content of perception, including sensory inputs and thoughts it produced before and stored information (memory) to try to produce thoughts fitting the current situation best. The process seems to be similar to throwing darts - the mind tries its best (as this is what it naturally and spontaneously does) to shoot a thought and then it checks how it resonates with other thoughts, including beliefs - thoughts deemed true and retained in the mind. If a thought resonates good, the mind tries to repeat it and eventually may be able to retain it as a belief. The resonation seems to be a process of kind of combining of two or more thoughts, and its result is also a thought.

The awareness witnesses the show produced in the brain, and it seems to be some kind of irreducible property of reality. It does not interfere in what happens, however what is perceived by it is the most important source of input for the mind and the brain as a whole. What puzzles me to utter confusion is the following question: if the awareness is totally inert, what is the point of its existence? And also, because it seems the most amazing part of the existence, why would it be just a witness, not the main protagonist? So I am stuck.
Is there a controller that controls thought?

The mind produces thoughts, then they resonate one with another, but no one controls them. These things happen as a result of processes in a living brain.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
I can use "tasks" to direct what appears to be the stream of thoughts. When I have a task, e.g. "think about elks", at least some of my thoughts will start to concern elks, certainly more frequently than usual.
Is that really so? Or does thought suggest that?

I used the "I" pronoun just as a shorthand, what I actually meant was "tasks" to be happening in a basically spontaneous way, in a process which cen be described also as "resonation", like above.
What we are trying to find out here is whether, or not you are the author of thoughts, or whether ANYTHING is authoring thoughts.


The thoughts seem to be produced, not authored.
The second thing that should be noticed is whether thought is aware of what it says, or not.

I don't know how to answer this question properly. The awareness seems to be one and indivisible, and all sensory phenomena, including thoughts, are just its contents. Like a movie shown somehow in the awareness-space.
No, they are basically random. Two thoughts put together seem to have a common topic - and yes, it must be just another thought. However, this topic, if maintained, can color subsequent thoughts and they seem to form a structure.

Random or a formed structure? Who is forming this structure?

As I wrote above, the mind aims to produce best-fitting thoughts according current circumstances. The structures emerge as thoughts resulting form the resonation process.

Also, there are patterns in language communication between humans that form sequences. We learn and emulate them mostly unconsciously and apply them to our thoughts.

Right, these patterns had been leaned. But do they have any connection to the actual experience?
Do these learned structures tell anything about reality?

No, the reality just is. These structures are produced by the brain and sometimes reused by it. Some of them are useful to navigate the reality, some are not.

Best regards,

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:45 pm

Dear Marcin,
I think I'm starting to get more glimpses of what the reality seems naturally to be, but it is still far from a clear view, therefore I can't help but fill the gaps with some speculation.

This is totally OK. However speculations won’t help.
What about just stating “I really don’t know.” ?
We’re not here to solve the question of existence by means of cleverness.
The mind cannot look at the mind as it cannot look without thought.
What is the difference between seeing and thought? Can seeing see? Can smell smell? Can touch feel?
All thoughts seem to come from this source.

So we have to find out what this source may be.

Perhaps I'm complicating things unnecessary, but this is how I see this problem now: the source of thoughts can be called mind. It produces thoughts in response to what is perceived. The mind itself is not aware nor visible to awareness. The mind uses content of perception, including sensory inputs and thoughts it produced before and stored information (memory) to try to produce thoughts fitting the current situation best. The process seems to be similar to throwing darts - the mind tries its best (as this is what it naturally and spontaneously does) to shoot a thought and then it checks how it resonates with other thoughts, including beliefs - thoughts deemed true and retained in the mind. If a thought resonates good, the mind tries to repeat it and eventually may be able to retain it as a belief. The resonation seems to be a process of kind of combining of two or more thoughts, and its result is also a thought.

The awareness witnesses the show produced in the brain, and it seems to be some kind of irreducible property of reality. It does not interfere in what happens, however what is perceived by it is the most important source of input for the mind and the brain as a whole.

Very well pondered. So is there a separate self? Is the mind yours? Is the process of awareness you?

What puzzles me to utter confusion is the following question: if the awareness is totally inert, what is the point of its existence? And also, because it seems the most amazing part of the existence, why would it be just a witness, not the main protagonist? So I am stuck.

Why should awareness be inert? Please do not try to solve this question intellectually.
Awareness is actually all there is, full of life. Awareness and the sense objects are not separate entities.
It is all interconnected, actually it is all one. It is like a big ocean, on top there are all sorts of waves.
Deep down there’s this silent presence underneath, which is the source of all there is.

Just raise your head and look at the sky. See the clouds moving, if there are some.
Where are they coming from, where do they go to? They are just there.
Just get in touch with the ‘isness’ of them.
Or look at night if the sky is clear at this enormous vastness out there.
Don’t let thought interfere. Just let the scene sink in. Feel the presence of it. Be with it.
I don't know how to answer this question properly. The awareness seems to be one and indivisible, and all sensory phenomena, including thoughts, are just its contents. Like a movie shown somehow in the awareness-space.

Yes, awareness is the screen and thoughts are the movie.
However was the question here whether thought can be aware of itself.
Can a thought think itself?

Here’s an exercise you might probably know from the gatecrashers book:

It is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience:

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon.
Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.
Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when
the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift
to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this,
it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”,
the separate individual entity.
Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

These questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise,
I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the
exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

All the best

nina.
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:23 pm

Dear nina,
What is the difference between seeing and thought? Can seeing see? Can smell smell? Can touch feel?

There is no difference in the quality of perception itself. Thoughts are just here, thoughts cannot think. However there is a difference originating in the peculiarites of human experience: the perception of thoughts is private to every human being. While many human beings can simultaneously see the same thing "out there", say a beautiful sunset, no other human seems to be able to perceive "my" thoughts. I'd say this is the origin of the illusion of separatedness.
So is there a separate self? Is the mind yours? Is the process of awareness you?

No, no and no. I accept this as a logical, necessary and best possible conclusion, and as I was able to "give up" the self again today and the life became clearly much more frictionless, amazingly so, I even see how it simply can make life better. However, there is still a lot of emotional attachment - most importantly I feel fear of internal loss of identity, but also, as the self is obviously a social construct, fear of entering socially unacceptable territory, of becoming an outcast. Discovering the truth of no self and everything that is going on on this website even seems to be alarmingly illegal at moments - a ridiculous idea of course!
Why should awareness be inert? Please do not try to solve this question intellectually.
Awareness is actually all there is, full of life. Awareness and the sense objects are not separate entities.
It is all interconnected, actually it is all one. It is like a big ocean, on top there are all sorts of waves.
Deep down there’s this silent presence underneath, which is the source of all there is.

Just raise your head and look at the sky. See the clouds moving, if there are some.
Where are they coming from, where do they go to? They are just there.
Just get in touch with the ‘isness’ of them.
Or look at night if the sky is clear at this enormous vastness out there.
Don’t let thought interfere. Just let the scene sink in. Feel the presence of it. Be with it.

Thank you very much for this suggestion! There is certainly nothing to worry about. Life is undescribably beautiful.
Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”,
the separate individual entity.
Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?
It feels like an image without an actual entity behind it, and I agree that it seems to be held together by a belief, but I still don't know how to drop this belief.

All the best

Marcin

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suma
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Hi

Postby suma » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:15 am

Dear Marcin,

did you really practice the exercises of the last post?
Did you really try to look at an imagined spoon and then took a real spoon and compared the two perceptions?
Doing it only theoretically won’t help.

It is as if you want to find out what the weather might be today.
You can think about it, ask someone about it, read about it, and search the internet about it –
but does that help to actually know what the weather outside really is?
All you have to do is just to look out of the window. There it is: The weather of today.

All we are doing here is as simple as such.
I can only offer you some pointers – the looking has to be done by you.
It feels like an image without an actual entity behind it, and I agree that it seems to be held together by a belief, but I still don't know how to drop this belief.
You don’t have to drop anything. And you will never be able to do that.
It is like a dog chasing its tail.
There’s not even any believe or assumption that needs to be dropped.

It is as little dramatic as your example with the Christmas tree.
If the smell of a living tree would have turned out to be not true, would that be frightening?
Would you become an outcast by realizing this?

Don’t be afraid to loose your mental ability. You won’t loose anything.
The only thing that might get threatened are false believes and imaginations.

Please to the exercise with the spoon again.
However, there is still a lot of emotional attachment - most importantly I feel fear of internal loss of identity, but also, as the self is obviously a social construct, fear of entering socially unacceptable territory, of becoming an outcast. Discovering the truth of no self and everything that is going on on this website even seems to be alarmingly illegal at moments - a ridiculous idea of course!
Is the fear an actual experience or is it just a thought about fear?
Fear, resistance or anger do appear as everything you thought you were and knew is being threatened.
It is only an appearing thought that says “I am afraid ………”.
Thoughts are actual experience and either point to actual experience or to thought stories.
Can a sensation or thought be feared? What is it exactly that is being afraid?

When you think you find "fear", try to define (look what the actual experience (AE) is):

The label ‘fear’ is AE of thought and not AE of fear.
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is AE of sensation and not AE of fear
The image labelled ‘me/body/I’ is AE of colour and not AE of person in fear.
The thoughts ABOUT fear and what it means is AE of thought and not AE of someone being in fear.



All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:41 pm

Dear nina,
did you really practice the exercises of the last post?

Yes, I did. And I did it again today, as you suggested. When I opened the eyes and looked at the imagined spoon, it wasn't there. Nothing happened at all, it just wasn't there.

But of course some things happened when I looked at the real spoon though - I noticed many of its details, which I hadn't thought about.
You don’t have to drop anything. And you will never be able to do that.
It is like a dog chasing its tail.
There’s not even any believe or assumption that needs to be dropped.

I felt frustrated after reading these words. It's neither this, nor that - so what is it supposed to be?

But after some time with this "frustration", I looked at it in a way which you suggested I should use when finding "fear". Well, the body wasn't frustrated at all. Actually, it has its own pleasures and pains, quite apart of the mind's. And then, when I tried to look at the "frustration" in the mind, suddenly it just wasn't there. There was a thought that it was just a prank. So it seems the whole "frustration" about the impossibility to see non-existence of self was just acted out, quite pointlessly at that.

Later during the day I started to have doubts about the whole enterprise: I started to feel that there are some good uses for the self, no matter whether it is fictional or not. This doesn't feel quite right, but I need to go through these ideas first and will report to you back when I'm done.
Thoughts are actual experience and either point to actual experience or to thought stories.

This is very interesting. Till now I regarded thoughts as objects that somehow have small images inside them, but if they are just pointers, that changes everything. I think I need some time to digest it. :)


Best regards,

Marcin


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