Remember

[cosmos]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Through my experimentation with psychedelic drugs, I believe I had a glimpse of no self. All boundaries dissolve and I lost all sense of identity/ego, all there was is pure witnessing consciousness. During that time, I was sure that this is the truth of life. However, without the help of the said substances, I am not able to reach the same heights.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for people who can point me in the right direction. I am meditating on and off and I am not particularly sure whether I am making progress or if I am doing it right (Non-doing). This is a great opportunity to interact with fellow seekers and those who have awakened. If it would help, I read and watch a lot of OSHO.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
My mind says it would be best not to expect anything. This is the first time I tried this so honestly speaking, I do not know what to expect. Probably, someone can help me understand what I am doing or not doing correctly. Just by typing this, my mind is in a great conflict not knowing how exactly to respond to any of the questions here.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Ever since I was young, I've had OBEs which did not make sense during that time. I have also had NDE which I in my recollection, is quite similar to a psychedelic trip. I've experimented with various psychedelic drugs such as Psilocybin, DMT, and LSD. I am not able to tell whether the experience I've had is a valid spiritual experience. After this, I have tried zazen on and off since I cannot meditate at all when I came from work. When I am in deep meditation (no substance) I can feel the energy flowing in my body and sometimes it feels like it is bursting (crown and third eye chakras) but I do not know how to work on it. From a conceptual standpoint, 'I' need to let go and let life happen but I have yet to realize it.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed, my name is Jon.

I have read your introduction with interest. What you wrote resonates. I'd like to offer to guide you to see that there is no self. What I can do is point for you but you will do the work of investigating for yourself.

Let me know if you'd like to accept my offer and I can send one or two bits of formal info for you to look at and we can then get started.

All best,

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed, my name is Jon.

I have read your introduction with interest. What you wrote resonates. I'd like to offer to guide you to see that there is no self. What I can do is point for you but you will do the work of investigating for yourself.

Let me know if you'd like to accept my offer and I can send one or two bits of formal info for you to look at and we can then get started.

All best,

Jon

Hello Jon,

Much gratitude for your response. Yes, I accept your offer and I look forward to get this underway.

Regards,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Thank you.



Here are one or two disclaimers and links that you should take a look at:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function (as I did above). When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please let me know that you have read the links? If there is anything there that you disagree with please let me know?

My mind says it would be best not to expect anything.

Great start! This is a very helpful attitude at the outset and serves us very well. Even so, if you find any expectations in the background, even ones that don't seem significant, do mention them?

. my mind is in a great conflict not knowing how exactly to respond to any of the questions here.

Don't worry. You're definitely not being judged and you can't get this 'wrong'.

. From a conceptual standpoint, 'I' need to let go and let life happen but I have yet to realize it.

Ok well let's start now:

The words on this screen are seen. Notice this right now. Its commonly assumed that it is 'eyes' or 'the body' that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.

Notice what the experience right here and now is actually like. What is found? Is there an experience of 'eyes seeing'? Is there an experience of 'me seeing'? Is it just seeing?

Thank you,

Jon

[cosmos]

Please let me know that you have read the links? If there is anything there that you disagree with please let me know?

I have read the links and I do agree with them, Jon.

Great start! This is a very helpful attitude at the outset and serves us very well. Even so, if you find any expectations in the background, even ones that don't seem significant, do mention them?

This is noted. I will let you know if anything comes up.

Ok well let's start now:

The words on this screen are seen. Notice this right now. Its commonly assumed that it is 'eyes' or 'the body' that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.

Notice what the experience right here and now is actually like. What is found? Is there an experience of 'eyes seeing'? Is there an experience of 'me seeing'? Is it just seeing?

Thank you,

Right now, it would appear that there is just seeing. Even watching my fingers type these words happening without control. Dejà vu in some sense that I am not 'me' (body/mind) yet there is something. Like a very calm nature at the background. Thoughts appearing that I am deceiving myself. That this is only how I expect things to be due to my accumulated knowledge or desire to know. At the same time, I recognize that these thoughts are not mine or belong to anyone for that matter.

With gratitude,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

(That's a nice nickname, by the way, unless it's your everyday name, in which case its also very nice).

I have read the links and I do agree with them, Jon.

Thank you.

This is noted. I will let you know if anything comes up.

Good.Again, thanks.

Right now, it would appear that there is just seeing. Even watching my fingers type these words happening without control. Dejà vu in some sense that I am not 'me' (body/mind) yet there is something. Like a very calm nature at the background.

Hee hee, Nice start.

Thoughts appearing that I am deceiving myself.

Ho ho, even better, by which I mean you notice thoughts 'saying' this.

Take another look at this seeing right now. directly. What's the experience? thoughts 'say' someone is deceiving themselves, so check. Go by the actual experience. What do you find?

That this is only how I expect things to be due to my accumulated knowledge or desire to know. At the same time, I recognize that these thoughts are not mine or belong to anyone for that matter.

Ok. So do they simply appear? to whom or what do the appear?

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

(That's a nice nickname, by the way, unless it's your everyday name, in which case its also very nice).

Thank you, Jon. Just a pseudonym (aren't all names?) that I am fond of :)

Take another look at this seeing right now. directly. What's the experience? thoughts 'say' someone is deceiving themselves, so check. Go by the actual experience. What do you find?

Okay, another look at 'seeing'. A little bit of confusion now. Instead of just 'seeing', thoughts appearing that the body (eye) is doing the seeing and at the same time, this body doing the seeing is being observed. One thought after the other and it seems to be paradoxical (observing thoughts with thoughts?) Not sure if I got my point across and any help is truly appreciated, Jon.

Ok. So do they simply appear? to whom or what do the appear?
Jon

They simply appear (-ing). This is what came to mind. Actually while writing this, another thought came by that says 'Stop this, why are you doing this?' I just set it aside. Thoughts seems to be distracting me from actual 'seeing'.

[JonathanR]

Okay, another look at 'seeing'. A little bit of confusion now. Instead of just 'seeing', thoughts appearing that the body (eye) is doing the seeing and at the same time, this body doing the seeing is being observed. One thought after the other and it seems to be paradoxical (observing thoughts with thoughts?) Not sure if I got my point across and any help is truly appreciated, Jon.

No worries Cosmos. I'll clarify and ask a couple of questions.

primarily I was asking you to explore once again the real experience of seeing, to see what happens, to see what it's really like, before thoughts chime in with interpretations about who is 'doing' the seeing and whether it's an experience of 'eyes seeing' or 'me seeing'?

Can one thought observe another? If not, what is doing the 'observing'? look at the experience directly to find out.

Jon

[cosmos]

No worries Cosmos. I'll clarify and ask a couple of questions.

primarily I was asking you to explore once again the real experience of seeing, to see what happens, to see what it's really like, before thoughts chime in with interpretations about who is 'doing' the seeing and whether it's an experience of 'eyes seeing' or 'me seeing'?

Can one thought observe another? If not, what is doing the 'observing'? look at the experience directly to find out.

Okay, before the thoughts, 'Seeing' just happens. No 'me' doing the seeing. Empty, it's like everything is simply reflected. Thoughts immediately follow such as ' how can you see without eyes?' Etc.

One thought cannot observe another, observing simply happens and thought does not have seem to have a mind of its own. However, they look to be interrelated like branches of a tree? Am I missing something?

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos


s

. Okay, before the thoughts, 'Seeing' just happens. No 'me' doing the seeing. Empty, it's like everything is simply reflected. Thoughts immediately follow such as ' how can you see without eyes?' Etc.

Thank you. Good work here.

It's good to notice the activity of thought. What thoughts 'say' about various things. We'll definitely consider this area soon.

Right now it would be useful to explore hearing and the other senses of taste, touch and smell.

At a time and place where you won't be disturbed sit quietly and become aware of whatever is heard. This could include quiet sounds such as breathing or barely audible electrical noise. But also louder sounds such as pigeons outside or traffic or dog barking.

Whatever is heard, notice the experience. Are 'ears hearing'? Is there a 'body hearing'? Is there an experience of a 'self hearing'?

Thank you

Jon

[cosmos]

Thank you. Good work here.

It's good to notice the activity of thought. What thoughts 'say' about various things. We'll definitely consider this area soon.

Right now it would be useful to explore hearing and the other senses of taste, touch and smell.

At a time and place where you won't be disturbed sit quietly and become aware of whatever is heard. This could include quiet sounds such as breathing or barely audible electrical noise. But also louder sounds such as pigeons outside or traffic or dog barking.

Whatever is heard, notice the experience. Are 'ears hearing'? Is there a 'body hearing'? Is there an experience of a 'self hearing'?

Thank you

Jon

Hi Jon,

Sorry for the late response. Actually, I did the opposite. Tried being aware during work (it's a noisy environment) and noticed that 'hearing' simply happens without a center. It is the same as seeing. There is the sound of typing, people chatting, noise in the background but no 'me' hearing.

Thank you

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Thanks for your message. Generally its a very good idea to post back to one another within the same 24 hour period because it adds a lot to the focus of tour conversation . But if you don't manage this occasionally it isn't necessary to PM me. Simply reply on the forum in the normal way. PMs are useful when there's something you wish tto say in confidence but usually everything gets discussed at The Gate.

Thanks for doing the hearing investigation.

. There is the sound of typing, people chatting, noise in the background but no 'me' hearing.

Great.

What I'll do is take this statement and write you a response in our thread at The Gate.

love

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

Thanks for your message. Generally its a very good idea to post back to one another within the same 24 hour period because it adds a lot to the focus of tour conversation . But if you don't manage this occasionally it isn't necessary to PM me. Simply reply on the forum in the normal way. PMs are useful when there's something you wish tto say in confidence but usually everything gets discussed at The Gate.

Thanks for doing the hearing investigation.

. There is the sound of typing, people chatting, noise in the background but no 'me' hearing.

Great.

What I'll do is take this statement and write you a response in our thread at The Gate.

love

Jon

Hi Jon,

Not sure what I am missing here but I have reread the response a few times and I am confused?

Thanks,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

My apologies if my post created confusion. Somehow it looked to me as though you had Private Messaged me but that was my mistake. No worries.

. There is the sound of typing, people chatting, noise in the background but no 'me' hearing.

Excellent. Good work. And great that you could try it in a busy, everyday context.

Do find moments to investigate the remaining senses, to see if any if a self can be found 'experiencing experience'? Is there an experience of immediate sensations happening to someone, or simply happening?


Ok, on to thought. You mentioned thoughts recently and I'm certain that you notice thoughts appearing alongside or immediately after these moments of pure sensation?

Is it clear that whatever thoughts 'say' about such experience, or' about anything else the commentary or succession of ideas is not the direct experience of seeing, hearing, touch, taste or smell? That thoughts are something extra that is somehow added on to sensations?

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,
Excellent. Good work. And great that you could try it in a busy, everyday context.

Do find moments to investigate the remaining senses, to see if any if a self can be found 'experiencing experience'? Is there an experience of immediate sensations happening to someone, or simply happening?

Thank you, Jon.

For the above statement, they are simply happening. Taste, feel, even smell. No receiver of such sensations.

Ok, on to thought. You mentioned thoughts recently and I'm certain that you notice thoughts appearing alongside or immediately after these moments of pure sensation?

Is it clear that whatever thoughts 'say' about such experience, or' about anything else the commentary or succession of ideas is not the direct experience of seeing, hearing, touch, taste or smell? That thoughts are something extra that is somehow added on to sensations?

Jon

Yes, it is clear to me that these thoughts are something extra. It is the 'mind' trying to label or interpret the direct experience.

Thanks