I feel ready want truth without comprimise

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majiinx
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I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:57 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
To be honest, I don't really know. "I" think I have it figured out but at the same time I recognize it as an oxymoron, for how can anything be known if there is no "I" to know it.

What are you looking for at LU? I am hoping that by working with a guide, I can receive clarity and seeing penetrate to the ultimate truth. I desire to know the nature of existence, the nature of my own being and what is waiting on the other side when this body perishes.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I honestly do not know what to expect, I am trying to keep my mind free of ideas, expectations, and concepts. In hopes that I can be fully aware and receptive when working with my guide. To see things as they are and not as I think or want them to be.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on a spiritual path for about 2 years, I have been focused on discovering the true nature of reality and where we fit into the big picture. I want to know the nature of my being and existence. I started by practicing meditation with hopes to improve concentration and to see what is beyond the mind. Eventually, I began studying Buddhism, and various occult and other non-duel practices. While I was making progress in my mood and concentration, I could not seem to "breakthrough" to higher states of meditation.

However, I have greatly been able to peel away the layers of my ego and have focused on watching for self-centered thoughts and activities and trying to avoid them as I knew they would not bring my happiness or joy that I sought. Eventually a few months ago, I stumbled on the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and began to practice self-inquiry ceaselessly. In doing so the layers are shredding away and I am left with this state of stillness and tranquility. Life is just happening perfectly, and all I have to do is simply be still. However, there is still this restlessness and nagging that I have not "realized" the truth and I keep going around in circles, knowing there is no I here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:21 am

Hello Majinx,

My name is Kay and I am happy to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions, but it is up to you to do the looking, as you have to see what is being pointed at for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This is not about discovering what you are; it is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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majiinx
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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:44 am

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.
I have read the disclaimer and links, I am ready to begin.

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:25 am

Hello Majiinx,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and on how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration, in your own words could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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majiinx
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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:48 am

How will life change?
I do not know, I feel like I am moving into uncharted territory and I'm trying to keep a clear and open mind: free of expectation and fear of what comes next
How will you change?
I don't know that either, I suspect, that if I were to be free of the "self" that I will be less inclined to worry about "me" and focusing on self-centered activity.
What will be different?
If I am free of the "self" and am less engaged in "self" centered activity. I hope that I will be more focused on work and my family. And less focused on doing things that only benefit me.
What is missing?
An understanding of my true nature and being.

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:48 am

Hello Majiinx

The questions were for you and I to become aware of expectations of how the realisation of seeing no self will look, feel and seem, and how it would happen. Expectations are a hindrance to this exploration as the realisation is subtle and can be totally overlooked due to expectations on how you think it would look and feel, and how you will act/be/ and how the outside world will look and be.
How will life change?
I do not know, I feel like I am moving into uncharted territory and I'm trying to keep a clear and open mind: free of expectation and fear of what comes next
That is good, however everyone has some expectations of what it would be like when it is seen that there is no separate self. It would be good to be aware of them now, although others will appear during the exploration.

So have an honest look at this and let me know what you find.
How will you change?
I don't know that either, I suspect, that if I were to be free of the "self" that I will be less inclined to worry about "me" and focusing on self-centered activity.
There has never been a separate self, so how it is now, is how it is when it is realised that there is no separate self. Paradoxically perception changes, but everything else stays as it is. Life simply life's. There is no you who is the author/owner of thought. So whether thoughts appear about “self-centered activities” or “worries about a “me” or not, have nothing to do with anyone or anything thinking. Thoughts simply arise and subside.

When the idea of Santa Claus was seen through, did anything really change or only perceptions about Santa Claus and Christmas changed?
What will be different?
If I am free of the "self" and am less engaged in "self" centered activity. I hope that I will be more focused on work and my family. And less focused on doing things that only benefit me.
There is no you thinking or doing, or who is in control of what is done, said, felt or thought. What happens simply happens. There is no one who is getting “free of the ‘self’”, since there is no self to get free of.
What is missing?
An understanding of my true nature and being.
As I wrote in my introductory post, this exploration is not about discovering what you are; it is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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majiinx
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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:19 pm

So have an look at this and let me know what you find./quote]

I have been practicing self inquiry and have yet to find any I, it just hasnt fully sunk in. I can so with the utmost honesty that i have no real expectations or attachment to outcome.

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:15 pm

Hey Majiinx
I have been practicing self inquiry and have yet to find any I, it just hasnt fully sunk in. I can so with the utmost honesty that i have no real expectations or attachment to outcome.
No worries, if there are any they will reveal themselves somewhere along the line.

Okay, now we learn to become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.

‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. So ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at actual experience (AE) in the current moment. It is no different to looking for your car keys when you think you have misplaced them. But instead of looking for car keys, you are looking at AE - the raw experience MINUS the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

If you have a ‘real’ apple (or any fruit) then you can use that for this exercise.


Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Please remember to answer the questions individually that are highlighted in blue text and to use the quote function.

Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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majiinx
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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:33 pm

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Just the experience of seeing an "apple"
[However, is an apple actually known?

No it is not.

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:44 am

Hello Majiinx
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Just the experience of seeing an "apple"
If an 'apple' is not known, then how can there be "the experience of seeing and "apple"?"

The questions is:-

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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majiinx
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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:44 am

Hello Majiinx
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Just the experience of seeing an "apple"
If an 'apple' is not known, then how can there be "the experience of seeing and "apple"?"

The questions is:-

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


Love, Kay
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
I am holding an apple and noticing something strange, as I look at this apple I can see it, and then I can feel it. But when I try and see if I know it or if it really there, I can't seem to find it even though its right here in front of me?

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:02 am

Hi Majiinx,

With using the quote function, only copy and paste the question being answered and then highlight that question alone in the quote function. This keeps the thread legible. You don’t need to copy and paste my entire post and then each question. Just the questions in blue need to be answered, therefore highlighted with the quote function. As per my example below.
I am holding an apple and noticing something strange, as I look at this apple I can see it, and then I can feel it. But when I try and see if I know it or if it really there, I can't seem to find it even though its right here in front of me?
I don't know what you are saying here? What is not in front of you? So, let’s take it slowly, as this is an important part of the exploration. If you don’t know how to look with actual experience (AE), then we won’t get far.

Grab an ‘apple’ or any other piece of fruit or even a piece of cheese or chocolate will do….go get it and then place it in front of you on the table. If you have used something other than an apple, just replace the word 'apple' with what you are using.

Now LOOK carefully.

1. The image of the ‘apple’ is the actual experience of colour and NOT the AE of an apple. The shape referred to as ‘apple’ is just different shades and patterns of colour. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the colour.

Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply actual experience (AE) of colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?


2. Now, pick up the ‘apple’ and close the eyes. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and of ‘hands’ and just focus on the sensation.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an apple, and that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of sensation?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?


3. Now, take a bite of the ‘apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the taste.

Does taste itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simply AE of taste?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?


4. Now, have a smell of the ‘apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the smell.

Does smell itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?


5. Now, listen to the sound of the ‘crunch of an apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the sound.

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?


6. So now look at the label ‘apple and the thought “I am looking at, and eating an apple”.

Does the label itself or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or are they just simply AE of label/thought?

The label ‘apple’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of an apple
The image labelled ‘apple’ is AE of colour and not the AE of an apple
The smell labelled ‘apple’ is AE of smell and not the AE of an apple
The taste labelled ‘apple’ is AE of taste and not the AE of an apple
The sound labelled ‘crunchy apple’ is AE of sound and not the AE of an apple
The sensation labelled as ‘hard, round apple’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of an apple

Thought overlays actual experience with concepts. An example being the AE of colour is being labelled as an 'apple'.

So is there really actual experience of an ‘apple’, or what is actually appearing, what the actual experience is, is colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound, which thought then labels and describes as an 'apple'?
In other words, is an apple actually known or only thoughts about an apple are known?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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majiinx
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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:02 am

Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply actual experience (AE) of colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?


The color by itself does not suggest it is an apple.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an apple and that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of sensation?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?
The feeling alone does not suggest it is an apple. With my eyes closed, forgetting the hands, I feel no separation from myself or the apple. Just sensations in the area I know my hands to be.
Does taste itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simply AE of taste?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?
It is only through thought and memory that I can recognize that I am chewing and tasting an apple. Without that, there is just the AE of experiencing sensations.
Does smell itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?
The smell alone suggests nothing, it is just a smell. It is the mind that knows the smell of an apple.
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?
The sound suggests nothing either, it is only the mind that can recognize what an apple sounds like.
So is there really actual experience of an ‘apple’, or what is actually appearing, what the actual experience is, is colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound, which thought then labels and describes as an 'apple'?
In other words, is an apple actually known or only thoughts about an apple are know
Only thoughts, and our conception of what we "know" an apple to be. It is only known by the mind and the mind alone. Senses cannot distinguish any differences between things. It is only by our mind, labeling, judging and separating objects that we know things. But we don't know all there is by an apple through experience alone, there is so much more to the apple itself that the mind cannot even know. We just know an apple by what it is not and our experiential relationship with apples we have experienced in the past.

We don't truly know an apple, just the minds version of it.

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:52 am

Hello Majiinx,
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an apple and that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of sensation?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?
The feeling alone does not suggest it is an apple. With my eyes closed, forgetting the hands, I feel no separation from myself or the apple. Just sensations in the area I know my hands to be.
Ignoring thoughts and mental images of 'hands', how would it be known that the sensations are coming from ‘hands’?
Does taste itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simply AE of taste?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?
It is only through thought and memory that I can recognize that I am chewing and tasting an apple. Without that, there is just the AE of experiencing sensations.
There is no such thing as ‘memory’. The label ‘memory’ is AE of thought. Actual experience is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If thought contained experience, you would be able to taste the thought/label ‘sweet’.

Experiencing what sensations exactly? Is it thought, sound, taste, smell, sensation or colour?
Does smell itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?
The smell alone suggests nothing, it is just a smell. It is the mind that knows the smell of an apple.
There is no such thing as the mind! Where exactly is this ‘mind’ located? What does it look like? What colour is this ‘mind’, can it be smelled, tasted, heard or felt. or is it simply the actual experience of thought?

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?
The sound suggests nothing either, it is only the mind that can recognize what an apple sounds like.
Without thought suggesting that the sound is that of an ‘apple’, it is simply the AE of sound. Where is the ‘apple’ exactly? Since an apple cannot be found in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation, then it must simply be a thought. So there is no sound of ‘apple’, there is simply the appearance of sound which thought suggests is that of an apple.
Can you see this?

So is there really actual experience of an ‘apple’, or what is actually appearing, what the actual experience is, is colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound, which thought then labels and describes as an 'apple'?
In other words, is an apple actually known or only thoughts about an apple are know
Only thoughts, and our conception of what we "know" an apple to be. It is only known by the mind and the mind alone.
There cannot be thoughts and “our conception”…there is no ‘you’ to have a concept. This exploration is not about using thought as a tool. It is about LOOKING and looking is about becoming aware of actual experience. Actual experience (AE) is simply smell, taste, sound, colour, sensation and the face value of thought. Anything other than that is pure fantasy.
Senses cannot distinguish any differences between things. It is only by our mind, labeling, judging and separating objects that we know things. But we don't know all there is by an apple through experience alone, there is so much more to the apple itself that the mind cannot even know. We just know an apple by what it is not and our experiential relationship with apples we have experienced in the past.
That is all thought content and is just story. Actual experience is very simple, although it can be challenging to just notice in the beginning.

So, let’s simplify it further.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds, for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part II of this exercise).


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I feel ready want truth without comprimise

Postby majiinx » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:22 pm

Ignoring thoughts and mental images of 'hands', how would it be known that the sensations are coming from ‘hands’?
I am unsure honestly.
Experiencing what sensations exactly? Is it thought, sound, taste, smell, sensation or colour?
The sensation of tasting, my mouth opening, and closing, my teeth grinding away.
There is no such thing as the mind! Where exactly is this ‘mind’ located? What does it look like? What colour is this ‘mind’, can it be smelled, tasted, heard or felt. or is it simply the actual experience of thought?
This is where I am really stuck. I have not been able to find either an I or a mind. And yet I still sometimes find myself identifying with thoughts and perceptions. Whenever I try to simply be, thoughts pop and create the illusion of being a mind and I catch myself being caught in the endless loop of thinking and identifying as "I".
Without thought suggesting that the sound is that of an ‘apple’, it is simply the AE of sound. Where is the ‘apple’ exactly? Since an apple cannot be found in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation, then it must simply be a thought. So there is no sound of ‘apple’, there is simply the appearance of sound which thought suggests is that of an apple.
Can you see this?
Yes, I can see it, but still find myself getting caught up in labeling, analyzing and judging thoughts and objects.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part II of this exercise).
I heard the sound of my air conditioner running.


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