Pushing Through

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amrita
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby amrita » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:34 pm

Let's look more at the difference between what is directly experienced and what thought says about experience...


Put an apple (or any other piece of fruit) in front of you and pay close attention to what is going in your actual experience.

What do you see? Can you describe what is happening in your actual experience?

Can you notice colour and shape and the labelling thought “apple”? Maybe there are lots of other thoughts about apples.

However, in your direct experience is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour, shape and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

For example,

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

If you pick the apple up and close your eyes can you feel the sensations in your hand separately from the apple itself? Are there not just sensations? Is it possible to really experience the apple outside of thoughts about the apple?

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience‘. And what else is there but the actual experience of the 5 senses in the here and now? And in our actual experience of sensory experience in the here and now can anything resembling a self be found?

Love

amrita

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:08 am

Hi amrita,

please can we leave the apple for a moment, I have spent time on it and it was interesting...

Last night i woke early and not being able to get back to sleep, I listened to some non dual teachings and about consciousness, letting go etc...I had a very profound insight and really felt a 'presence of awareness' in as much as previously the words presence and awareness were just words that were then conceptualized...but I really understood the meaning of it...I felt presence of awareness as being pure consciousness and could get back to sleep, spent time just staring as my curtains and looking at the light falling on them...like I could notice detail and felt sense of noticing them...

So far this morning its been nice but old thought patterns coming up but not getting drawn into them too much but still having to deal with life...but feeling more at one..but underlying fear is reverting back to old ways...getting stuck and lost inside again...what to do from here?

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:42 pm

Put an apple (or any other piece of fruit) in front of you and pay close attention to what is going in your actual experience.

What do you see?
Can you describe what is happening in your actual experience?
I am looking at an object than I call an apple.
Can you notice colour and shape and the labelling thought “apple”? Maybe there are lots of other thoughts about apples.
I see an object that I label round shape with colours that I label red, I see a long bit that I label a stalk, a smell that I label sweet, I can see the skin that seems to exert some kind of feeling a I know if I touch it (its looks waxed) it will create a sensation of feeling i.e a kind of uncomfortable like chalk on black board, I see another object on it that I label water, reflecting something called light in a different way, I see a darker object on the table to one side of the apple that I label shadow,
However, in your direct experience is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour, shape and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Yes just thought about apple, the apple thought is constructed by mind and past.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience? Only when referring to an image or past connection to apples which if I let it can bring about (feel it inside) lots of opinions and past memories, but in the now it is an object I label an applce.

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

For example,

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
No apple.

If you pick the apple up and close your eyes can you feel the sensations in your hand separately from the apple itself? Are there not just sensations? Is it possible to really experience the apple outside of thoughts about the apple?
Yes just the sensations, as you say…I feel a sensation that I label cold and
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience‘. And what else is there but the actual experience of the 5 senses in the here and now? And in our actual experience of sensory experience in the here and now can anything resembling a self be found?
No I don’t believe there is a self but not sure I am completely discounting yet or feel that I have rooted it out of my beliefs…When you ask if anything resembling a self can be found…we are talking about a seperate self inside that has an opinion other that mine….in that case…today I don’t necessarily find one…

Thank you

Steven

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amrita
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby amrita » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:43 pm

Hi Steven,

We can leave the apple alone now if you like :)

When you look directly at experience can you find presence and awareness in what is experienced? Is there something innately knowing within experience?

When old thought patterns come up is it possible to be aware of the thoughts rather than identifying with the contents as something real or solid? Just

Is it possible to welcome the "fearful feelings" without pushing them away? If you can let any sensations in the body be and gently "look" into them for any sign of a self? Are they "your" sensations or are there just sensations? Likewise, are they your thoughts or are there just thoughts?

Love

Amrita

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:42 am

Hi Steven,

We can leave the apple alone now if you like :)
Sorry, please don’t listen to me…as not sure sometimes where my voice is coming from…having had a really open day…last night I had a terrible sleep…felt a churning inside and really frustrated, kept trying to find an object of the mind to attach to..but couldn’t…wanted peace but was really bad. I feel really confused today…I’m not sure if I should be meditating or practicing any else to help this process…I feel unsure of what to think…how to think..who am it etc…its really unsettling..

I think I am either trying to hard…or living in the past…i.e I had that expanded insightful mind yesterday…and then I want to stay in it…keep living it…then it fades…I try to get it back….seeking seeking. More frustration…more anguish…I think one underlying issue is an intent to make this process a means to and end..i.e. that there will come some point and then it will be effortless…

I also find I am constantly (subconsciously or I’m not sure) trying to control situations to my mind view…that I think is open…but think it might just hold more perceptions about the way things should be or not…
When you look directly at experience can you find presence and awareness in what is experienced? Is there something innately knowing within experience?
Not today…today I feel really tight and rigid…like I had some uncomfortable mind patterns playing…i.e your not good enough…look at how well they are doing…how are they always so together and peaceful and I am not, whats there secrete…maybe they are enlightend and I am not…- it feels like madness to me…
When old thought patterns come up is it possible to be aware of the thoughts rather than identifying with the contents as something real or solid?
Not really..;(
Is it possible to welcome the "fearful feelings" without pushing them away? If you can let any sensations in the body be and gently "look" into them for any sign of a self? Are they "your" sensations or are there just sensations? Likewise, are they your thoughts or are there just thoughts?
Not today…I don’t know if on another day…I can…I feel really obliterated after last night mind and body attack. Not sure what was going on if something way trying to come out…but again…feels like the process of going round in circles. Not sure.

I feel abit lost today…like you’re the only person in the world that I can be real and open with…for everyone else I have to put up a front..feel lonely I guess, but I know I keep pushing people away..or don't feel like making an effort or start judgement myself or others...

Love

Steven

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amrita
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby amrita » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:11 pm

Hey Steven,

Can you say a bit more about your "mind and body attack last night"? Is this something that has happened before or is it the result of this type of inquiry?

For what its worth, I can identify with the struggle and have found going through this process has resulted in becoming much more peaceful and grounded in the expansiveness of the present moment so yes I do believe it's possible.

Lots of love to you where you are and I hope you get through whatever it is you are going through

Amrita X

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:49 pm

Hi amrita,

Wow…I saw it this morning…I feel that I have had an initial insight it started when I woke…I heard a Pigeon cooing outside…my mind went to it and tried to have a conversation with if. Or make some comment…but awareness caught it and didn’t engage it… then insight to awareness that it is something separate from the mind chatter was clear to me…and that it has no judgment, or anything attached to it…I saw it like a TV turning on when I woke this morning. And that I was the screen, the whole room was lit up with my consciousness and that all the object in my room where there but weren’t individually labelled…

Something i watched that really helped me get it was that Awareness itself is non-dual...i.e it has no agenda...so at rest...I saw awareness was me and that it was peaceful, gave me the insight...previously I am constantly trying to find it...but its the seeking that keeps pushing it away or creating another layer.

feel really good today since…mind is quiet, no negative feeling…had some really horrible mind patterns that caused me allot of suffering that seem to have evaporated or even if they were to occur now could bat them away with Love and say…not today…not for me, Feeling genuine…clear…had the most amazing meditation afterwards. Just sitting…like I went into myself…and felt such immense bliss,

Its funny because now In reflection I can kind of see that all my previous meditation got me to a point of awareness but because I didn’t understand the background to what was happening or how to reconcile it…it was never fully manifested as a proper awakening, or just left me in this loop and a fear that at anytime something negative could or would pull me down again…

I am not sure about the body and world yet, think it needs more exploring…not sure if you have any tips to go deeper – I feel like I want to go deeper and see what I can shed.

think that the past few days or minor bliss insight...then suffering was some kind of pre wakening that i needed to go through..i really felt like giving up yesterday...like really low...but things have flipped round, amazing...this is truly the most amazing thing.

Love Steven

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:23 pm

So had a good day...but attention got sucked into day to day stuff, emails etc...want to find the space between me and my thoughts and feelings and emotions..but seem to have contracted in abit...and treading carefully to not get into any new loops...

Any advice from here greatly welcomed.

Love

Steven

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:43 am

So seems to have contracted back into myself without any separation...'feels frustrating' that I kind of know that buying into that feeling is part of whats holding me back...still attached to mind and body and objects...there is expectation and fear that I am not worthy of discovery..but find that getting it out here is helping...expressing my inner self..

how to maintain and keep constant..is to be the constant...but the constant keeps getting veiled with moods, feelings, sensations...

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amrita
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby amrita » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:13 pm

Hi Steven,

From what you write you seem to be expecting some kind of peak experience from realising there is no self or realising non-duality or enlightenment. Is that right? Can you tell me what you think would be different in your experience if you were fully awake or aware?

This process is all about seeing what is going on right NOW in our direct experience of what is seen, what is heard and what is felt. In other words our direct, immediate experience of the senses.

As you read these words on a screen, can you find any sense of self or are these words just arising (within awareness)?

When you compose and write your response, can you find any sense of self thinking or writing your reply? When your fingers tap out the words on the screen, can you find a self that is doing the typing or the choice of words or are the words simply arising on the screen?

love

Amrita

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:57 pm

I'm kind of getting some real insights but then going back into myself...and getting lost..I thought I made a real break through..but now not sure...I think its my expectation again...pushing too hard, it helps when I write here to get things out...

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:38 pm

I think i am still too identified with thoughts and feelings and emotions...not sure how to seperate this and know what is real or not..

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amrita
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby amrita » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:04 am

Hi Steven,

Lets slow this right down and take our time in this inquiry. Please take any pressure off yourself. It doesnt matter if you get it or you dont right now. You can take as much time as you need. You can stop this and take it up later if you like with a different guide. The important thing is to relax and have a childlike sense of openess and curiousity about the process.

I'd like to suggest an exercise for you that hopefully taps into that childlike wonder.

Set a timer or stopwatch for a small period eg 1 minute, 3 minture, 5 minute whatever you feel comfortable with. You can do this with eyes closed or eyes open, again its up to you. What I would like for you to do is count every time you have a thought (word or picture or sound) until the time period is up. The experiement is to find out how many thoughts you have in e.g.1 minute. The aim is not to get caught up in the contents of the thought but just to count the quantity of thoughts or mental events occuring.

Does that make sense? If so, play around with that and post back when you are ready.

Take care of yourself man

Amrita

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Thank you, will report back in due course...I am good, thanks for caring.

Love

Steven

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sek
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Re: Pushing Through

Postby sek » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:05 am

Hi Amrita,

Thank you for your patience, I feel that I am ready to continue, if that is OK with you and you are available?

I think a big part of my frustration has been finding total freedom, peace and some kind of awakening, and then contracting back into my conditioning and feeling trapped. It feels without being too dramatic like heaven and hell...like I left the prison only to be returned..

If i focus on the thought - "Who Am I?" then I seem to be able to find an anchor with this as it keeps me questioning my thoughts and not jumping onto Unconscious mind patterns and reactions.

Also reverting to old meditations practices can just create more mind i.e repeating a Mantra feels limited and I start to restrict myself and my outlook.

my nature is to be analytical and if I am not in tune, this is when mind / intellect / ego starts to dominate and occupy my being, and I feel trapped.

I tried the exercise that you mentioned with a 2min timer...when I am still and sitting doing this it seems that I had about 10 thoughts that I could recognize over this period and was surprised how quickly 2 mins seemed to pass. thoughts were mainly commentary about my situation or some past event or some doing that needs to be done.

Love Steven


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