Confusion

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Atom
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Confusion

Postby Atom » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:44 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My "understanding" is that the concept of a "self" existing as a seperate entity from all other phenomena within what is called "experience" is simply another one of those phenomena and not seperate from the all of the experience. In this way, the identification of what we actually all are is not the reality. Instead......the reality is the ALL?

What are you looking for at LU?
In all honesty, I wish only to put the mind to rest in the pursuit of truth. I wish to rest in REAL knowing and being of what is. In some sense I feel that this has been made known to me already. I feel that I am looking for confirmation of this and I am delighted to see that there is a community of people out there who are likely resting in what may be the "reality of what is". I also feel at the same time, a feeling of not knowing this "truth". I cannot say that I feel conected or at ease either which has raised the suspicion within myself that I may still be very unaware of what is true or maybe I am aware......there has been a sense of "mundaness" to my life if I can call it that. I have also recently experienced many life changes as well. Loss of a career (relief came with this as I see that I was no longer meant to be in that field), recent "psychosis" which led to 7 days in a mental hospital. Now I am of a healthier condition mentally and emotionally and currently living with family as I pick up the pieces of my life. Self inquiry persists however and has for some time now. I continue to return intuitively to the notion that there is no "I" to which all of life is happening and can say that there have been several experiences of both peace and quiet within the mind as well as unconditional loving presence that have taken place within the last decade. If I could describe my experience currently it might be best described as feeling as though I am floating within a sea of everything and nothing to grasp onto and more often than not there is a feeling of depression or flatness that I feel. Not sure if this has something to do with something that has already taken place or if this is simply another trick of the mind as the pursuit of some Truth has for a long time now been a background theme in my life. I have also lost all urges to "become" anything or pursue any passions of any kind. This has happened in the last year and has become reality for me now, in other words, I know that this lack of drive to continue becoming anything is not contrived from myself and simply is at this point.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope for clarity within my own mind and confirmation in the belief and sense that there is no such thing as an "I". To see through the illusion of separation from all that is. I wish to finally experience peace and a sense of harmony within my own life so that enjoyment and understanding can take place naturally and that I can no longer struggle within my ownself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am 31 now and have been a seeker as far back as age 13-16 approx. I came across the practice of self inquiry via Youtube about 8 years ago and remembered how frightened I felt about the message at the time. The process of questioning this on a continual daily basis started up again of its own about 2-3 years ago and now it does not seem frightening at all. Meditation is no longer something I do and for me if meditation is anything I feel it is only the natural state of allowing all things to be at all times and during all activities so I have no formal practicing of any kind and I have also gotten rid of all "spiritual" books. I did that several years ago and prior to that had quite a number of them. I had recently been watching youtube vids in relation to this topic though and was lead here as a result. I am new to this experience and feeling very open to seeing what is true.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Re: Confusion

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:10 pm

Hey Atom,

Welcome to this place :) and thank you for your introduction.

I'm willing to explore this with you - just let me know and we'll take some steps.

Best wishes,
John, a guide here
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:45 pm

Thank you John for the quick reply....I am ready and able whenever you are. Thank you again for being available and willing to guide:)

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Re: Confusion

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:32 pm

Thank you John for the quick reply....I am ready and able whenever you are. Thank you again for being available and willing to guide:)

Cool. :)

If I could describe my experience currently it might be best described as feeling as though I am floating within a sea of everything and nothing to grasp onto and more often than not there is a feeling of depression or flatness that I feel. Not sure if this has something to do with something that has already taken place or if this is simply another trick of the mind as the pursuit of some Truth has for a long time now been a background theme in my life. I have also lost all urges to "become" anything or pursue any passions of any kind. This has happened in the last year and has become reality for me now, in other words, I know that this lack of drive to continue becoming anything is not contrived from myself and simply is at this point.

These are good indications of various shifts. Good work!

The lost urges are generally down to the old orientation of 'me' having pretty much gone. So the way in which we would normally be motivated i.e. through a story of 'me', doesn't apply. This tends to leave us floating around within a sea of everything.

The self-inquiry approach, while good at showing that 'me' is made-up, also tends to bring about a detached state - which is useful when inquiring, but was never intended to be a destination.

Having detached to see what 'me' is, it's good to come back to being grounded.

Shall await you thoughts on the above.

With best wishes,
John

p.s. you want to be referred to be Atom or some other name?
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:47 pm

Thank you john,

I read your reply several times and now I wonder if I have not been "grounded" for a very long time now. I have never spoken with or been around another human being who may even know about what any of this is. What is meant by "grounded" and also how can one become more "grounded" and less detached? I also never remember ever having any of the experiences of the Ah Ha! moment. I never remember anything grandiose about seeing that the concept of self is just that....a concept. So how does one know if they have truly seen through all of this? I feel as though I am looking for confirmation from someone whom I believe has also done this?
I hope I have replied to you in a way that is clear because I really do appreciate this. There also seems to be this part of me that no longer wishes to even question the validity of any of it, this feels most like frustration.

P.S. my actual name is Adam and it is more than ok to call me by that name
thanks again

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Re: Confusion

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:54 pm

Hi Adam,

I read your reply several times and now I wonder if I have not been "grounded" for a very long time now. I have never spoken with or been around another human being who may even know about what any of this is. What is meant by "grounded" and also how can one become more "grounded" and less detached?

Inquiry is biased towards detached observation, so we get kinda hooked on it, believing this is what awakening 'looks like'.

So first of all, we can take the approach that detachment may not be the whole deal.

Explore this: Observe your movement. Feet/legs walking, hands moving, head turning and so on. Only observe, in a somewhat detached fashion.

Then, sink into the movement a little, whilst also observing.
You could explore this while walking.

Play with not only observing movement, but moving-observing.
Have a play with it, share what you discover.

I also never remember ever having any of the experiences of the Ah Ha! moment. I never remember anything grandiose about seeing that the concept of self is just that....a concept. So how does one know if they have truly seen through all of this? I feel as though I am looking for confirmation from someone whom I believe has also done this?

It varies for each one. Losing all motivation is one indicator that some kind of shift had occurred. But we can inquire more.

I hope I have replied to you in a way that is clear because I really do appreciate this. There also seems to be this part of me that no longer wishes to even question the validity of any of it, this feels most like frustration.

If it's your experience, its valid. The more we inquire, the more you will validate your own experience. We don't want to be dependent on some other authority. You are your own authority.

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:26 am

Hey John.....I immediately began to follow your instructions and something interesting happened that had not happened in that way before.
As observing went from bodily sensations towards an attempt to moving the observing I moved it towards the observing of thoughts then back to the body then thoughts. “Moving the observing” at first did not make sense to me but then I realized that the content of observation seemed to move from the body to the mind then back to the body then a question arose of itself
The question was.....what is moving? So here is where I am at this question....”what” is moving?

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Re: Confusion

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:58 am

Hey John.....I immediately began to follow your instructions and something interesting happened that had not happened in that way before.
As observing went from bodily sensations towards an attempt to moving the observing I moved it towards the observing of thoughts then back to the body then thoughts. “Moving the observing” at first did not make sense to me but then I realized that the content of observation seemed to move from the body to the mind then back to the body then a question arose of itself
The question was.....what is moving? So here is where I am at this question....”what” is moving?

Should there be zen master sitting on my desk, she'd probably say, "It is your mind that is moving." :)

But all this will unfold as we go along.

Tell me how you experience a 'me'/self/myself (however you label it) at the moment.

Many thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 pm

You’re doing a wonderful job I think lol.....
Something has happened that feels peculiar in the sense that when I try to answer your last question (how am I I experiencing self/me ) I cannot find an answer. Instead there is a feeling of allowing whatever is to be that. If there are bodily sensations then it is so...if there is thinking that is so....and so forth. The label within the inner dialogue is seen to be just words in the “mind” thought is thought, sensations are felt, whatever it was that seemed to somehow attach to a feeling of self is simply not seen or even felt and yet all the same things within experience remain. This feels peaceful and Un-disturbed despite what is felt. There seems to be a settling into a “non-labeling” yet nothing is at the center of the experience. It feels good. I am having a hard time with articulating this but there is also a noticing that whatever was there seeking to take credit for what is happening has gone. But I cannot even say that it was there, though something has changed it seems subtle.

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:29 pm

All of the aforementioned happened right before falling asleep last night, it was as if something fell away but that something I cannot say.....I slept like a baby and there is not a me allowing this to be but simply allowingness happening now. Things feel different but the same

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:36 pm

I am actually headed to a psychotherapy appointment and do not know what to complain about or talk about, everything seems to be just fine as it is but for no reason other than I feel there is a non attaching happening which feels great lol. Is this Joy?

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Re: Confusion

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:28 pm

Something has happened that feels peculiar in the sense that when I try to answer your last question (how am I I experiencing self/me ) I cannot find an answer. Instead there is a feeling of allowing whatever is to be that. If there are bodily sensations then it is so...if there is thinking that is so....and so forth. The label within the inner dialogue is seen to be just words in the “mind” thought is thought, sensations are felt, whatever it was that seemed to somehow attach to a feeling of self is simply not seen or even felt and yet all the same things within experience remain. This feels peaceful and Un-disturbed despite what is felt. There seems to be a settling into a “non-labeling” yet nothing is at the center of the experience. It feels good. I am having a hard time with articulating this but there is also a noticing that whatever was there seeking to take credit for what is happening has gone. But I cannot even say that it was there, though something has changed it seems subtle.

Articulating it very well. We only read between the lines here. :)

All of the aforementioned happened right before falling asleep last night, it was as if something fell away but that something I cannot say.....I slept like a baby and there is not a me allowing this to be but simply allowingness happening now. Things feel different but the same

Share the experience as it unfolds.

With best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:45 pm

Ok....whatever experience took place yesterday seems to have gone back to how I felt prior now. There is a sense of “me-ness” for sure now only I still know conceptually that it must be an illusion, my experience today is not peaceful, silent and expansive like it was yesterday. I did notice that the feeling began to leave once I began to explain all of this to a friend. It’s as if the mind or the “I” came rushing back in to take credit and hold onto yesterday which is now the past. So now I come to another question of what is it that is present to hold both the experience of yesterday and also the experience e of today’s “me-ness”? When the me-ness returned I immediately noticed this to be felt in the body as a sense of heaviness/contracted feeling came back....not to mention who in the hell is the one noticing all of these things in the first place?

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Re: Confusion

Postby Atom » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:48 pm

Or is there just simply a noticing of these things....
No one needed in order to notice? This inquiry stuff I’ve conditioned myself to do seems to run itself into circles going no where ultimately.

Thank you John as always for your patience and guidance
I am looking forward to your reply

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Re: Confusion

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:36 pm

Ok....whatever experience took place yesterday seems to have gone back to how I felt prior now. There is a sense of “me-ness” for sure now only I still know conceptually that it must be an illusion, my experience today is not peaceful, silent and expansive like it was yesterday.

Good. Gives another opportunity to contrast between identification with 'me' and not doing that.

I did notice that the feeling began to leave once I began to explain all of this to a friend.

Like authors never tell their new story to anyone, or else it will disappear. :D

But yeah, we all do it, claim every new insight for our own, show off a bit - you're only human. :)

There is a sense of “me-ness” for sure now only I still know conceptually that it must be an illusion, my experience today is not peaceful, silent and expansive like it was yesterday. It’s as if the mind or the “I” came rushing back in to take credit and hold onto yesterday which is now the past. So now I come to another question of what is it that is present to hold both the experience of yesterday and also the experience e of today’s “me-ness”? When the me-ness returned I immediately noticed this to be felt in the body as a sense of heaviness/contracted feeling came back....not to mention who in the hell is the one noticing all of these things in the first place?

This approach of trying to solve the puzzle conceptually doesn't work. On the other side, it highlights that there is lots of stuff we don't know and want to know. It may be unknowable. Time will tell.

Or is there just simply a noticing of these things....
No one needed in order to notice? This inquiry stuff I’ve conditioned myself to do seems to run itself into circles going no where ultimately.

You're right, approached conceptually, we do run in circles. So we won't do that. Let's look at this 'me-ness'.

First off, plunge into the experience of me-ness, of being Adam, and notice, what are the significant elements of this experience that form the fulcrum of this so-called self.

Some places to look:

- facial tension, the mask of Adam
- habitual posture/s
- caught up in mind
- where does Adam seem to be primarily located?
- where Adam doesn't seem to be e.g. left little toe nail, right elbow?
- is Adam deemed to be behind the eyes?
- is Adam looking out of the eyes?
- is Adam felt in the chest? the stomach? where is she most obvious?
- any other parts of experience that have Adam stamped on it?

Many thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/


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