Seeing not seeing

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Morena
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Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:52 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The ego self is both the content of and a construction of thoughts, so it doesn’t actually have control over anything. Reality is a leaderless unfolding from manifold perspectives.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’d like to have a long hard concrete look at the lack of self and learn how to not slip back into delusion. I’ve had falling away experiences in the past, but the ego attachment always comes screaming back. I’ll vacillate between identification and nonidentification with the ego and want to learn how to live in nonidentification.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointed questions and pointed answers circling and pointing to an answer beyond words. A guiding conversation similar to dokusan. I don’t expect the guide to do the work for me (I don’t expect me to do the work for me either!) The whole process feels like and inevitability.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I’ve been meditating seriously for a decade, practiced witchcraft in some form or other for almost 2 decades, and practiced reiki and divination for almost a decade.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:48 am

Hi Morena,

Welcome to the Liberation Unleashed forums! Should I call you Morena, or is there some other name you would prefer?

Before we get started, just a few important preliminaries. During our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each, you will need to look in your OWN direct experience, and answer with 100% honesty.

I point. You look. You tell me what you see, right there and then. Rinse & repeat. Simple :)

The answer has to come from your own direct experience, in the present moment (the NOW). That means avoiding thought/analysing/memories of the past - and avoiding the thoughts/teachings of others.

Please watch the below 30 second video and learn how to use the Quote function. This is important for us to have a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Please make an effort to write here every day. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking.

Does the above sound ok?
Tim
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:41 am

Hi Tim!

Thank you for working with me! I’m fine with Morena, or you can call me Ruth. I’m not fussed either way, so whichever you prefer :)

Prelims sound good! I’m ready for some deep, honest look-and-see.

Ruth

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:26 pm

Great :)

Let us start off with a nice easy exercise, but which lays some very important groundwork. Humour me!

Try this for real, and report back what you find:

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock as we will need if after).

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible! This is an example of using thought.

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc. This is an example of actual experience (AE).

How does actual experience compare to thought?
Which feels more real?
Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?
Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?

Please answer each question individually, and answer all questions.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:15 pm

Ok!
How does actual experience compare to thought?
AE is incredibly more vibrant. It’s like grapefruit juice compared to pamplemouse la croix.
Which feels more real?
The actual experience.
Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?
Not at all!
Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?
I sincerely doubt it. There’s too much information.

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:01 pm

Great, some good LOOKING at actual experience there.

So it was seen how:
>> actual experience <<
is completely different to
>> thoughts about actual experience <<

Thoughts may be very convincing sometimes, but that can never make them real.

Thoughts can basically do only one of two things:
— Thoughts about actual experience
— Thoughts about other thoughts

For the next exercise, bring up your idea of the “self”, the thought of “me” / “I”. Take a long, careful LOOK at what comes up in actual experience.

Report back a list of all the things that come up when you think of the “self”.

For each thing on the list, please label it as either thought, or actual experience (AE).

Let me know what you find!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:14 pm

Ok! So looking at my self I see

My history and future (thought)

My body, especially physical sensations below my belly button, in my sternum, in my throat, and at the base of my skull when I think about I or me (some parts of this are ae, but seem distorted through narrativizing or labeling thoughts)

Spaces of time and location where everything is, for lack of a better word, blank (ie no thoughts or ability for thoughts to enter [although they may be swirling around the gap], an essentially indescribable place) (ae)

A sense of feeling that actions are controlled by me (thought)

Really, I feel like the gaps are the actual reality. They seem to be present underneath thoughts as well. Like the ground of potentiality or something

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:20 pm

Really, I feel like the gaps are the actual reality. They seem to be present underneath thoughts as well. Like the ground of potentiality or something
Yes. While it is beyond the possibility to describe in words (this is why it must be experienced directly, not read in a book), this is pretty close to the truth.
My history and future (thought)
but seem distorted through narrativizing or labeling thoughts
A sense of feeling that actions are controlled by me (thought)
So it was clearly seen that all of what we commonly assume is “self”, is actually only thoughts about a possible self, once we look closely.

You mentioned the body sensations. This can be one source of identification. We will look at this next.

Firstly, let’s take a look at the belief in control:

If there really is a “you” in there, controlling everything you do, then you will know exactly how you do things — right?

Next time you talk out loud, observe the process from the background.
How EXACTLY do you talk?
How do you form the mouth shapes, control breath, and pitch to form words?
How do you do ALL those complex things right before the sounds come out?
And while deciding WHAT to say next?
Describe the process you use.

Now go out for a walk, and observe the walking.
How do you control all the micro-muscle movements and retain perfect balance and stability?
Can you still walk while thinking about other things?
Describe the process.

Sit and observe breathing.
How do you control the flow rate, the aperture of the entrance to the lungs, the speed, rhythm of the breath?
How DO you know exactly how much oxygen is needed for the current moment, and when to speed up or slow down?
Describe the process.

Sit quietly and observe thought.
Do you decide the next thought which comes up?
If so, how?
With the previous thought, perhaps?
Then how is the previous thought decided, and the one before that, and so on?
At which point do you actually make the decision what to think next?
Can you observe this happening in reality?
Can you pause a thought in the middle?
What happens if you try to hold on to a thought?
Describe the process.

Now answer the following questions:

Is there really a “you” inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?
Is there a talker, or is there just talking?
Is there a walker; or is there just walking?
Is there a breather; or is there just breathing?
Is there a thinker; or is there just thinking?

Is it in fact, only thought which SAYS that you control all these things?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:59 pm

Ok cool! I’m going to take some time with this, and will respond tomorrow!

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:41 am

Sure no worries :)
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:20 pm

Apologies for the delay. This weekend was surprisingly busy.
Next time you talk out loud, observe the process from the background.
How EXACTLY do you talk?
How do you form the mouth shapes, control breath, and pitch to form words?
How do you do ALL those complex things right before the sounds come out?
And while deciding WHAT to say next?
Describe the process you use.

Now go out for a walk, and observe the walking.
How do you control all the micro-muscle movements and retain perfect balance and stability?
Can you still walk while thinking about other things?
Describe the process.

Sit and observe breathing.
How do you control the flow rate, the aperture of the entrance to the lungs, the speed, rhythm of the breath?
How DO you know exactly how much oxygen is needed for the current moment, and when to speed up or slow down?
Describe the process.
Lolol

Thought is just an adjunct to action. I can think about doing something and do it, think about doing something and not do it, or not think about doing something and do it anyway. And that’s just talking about gross action. Most all of the details are unconscious and have no real possibility of becoming conscious.
Sit quietly and observe thought.
Do you decide the next thought which comes up?

No. At the most there’s a feeling with thoughts saying that there is control. But thoughts are like bubbles in an aquarium. They may seem related and even be filled with similar stuff, but they’re their own self-contained units all popping up to the surface.
Can you observe this happening in reality?

Yes.
Can you pause a thought in the middle?
No.
What happens if you try to hold on to a thought?
Who is there to hold on to a thought?

I exist in a thought, or rather a series of seemingly related thoughts. Thoughts don’t really have any power,, they more exist as a screen between ae and I don’t know what...not a viewer, more like a conscious void.
Is there really a “you” inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?
No. Just a story that that’s the case.
Is there a talker, or is there just talking?
Just talking
Is there a walker; or is there just walking?
Just walking
Is there a breather; or is there just breathing?
Just breathing
Is there a thinker; or is there just thinking?
Just thinking
Is it in fact, only thought which SAYS that you control all these things?
Lol that seems to be the case

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gondwana
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Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:37 am

Apologies for the delay. This weekend was surprisingly busy.
No worries! Sorry for the delay at this end, it has been busy here too.
Thought is just an adjunct to action. I can think about doing something and do it, think about doing something and not do it, or not think about doing something and do it anyway.
Hehe, yes. Catching on happened quickly there!

So it was seen clearly how there is never any “I” in control of actions. This is the end of the illusion of control. Let me know if it arises again!

Feeling “in control”, or a need to feel “in control”, are all products of the illusion of the “self”.
No. At the most there’s a feeling with thoughts saying that there is control. But thoughts are like bubbles in an aquarium. They may seem related and even be filled with similar stuff, but they’re their own self-contained units all popping up to the surface.
Good. So it was seen clearly how thought works.

One thing is, upon looking closely, there are only ever 6 things in ALL of experience. Ever!
The seen
The heard
The smelled
The tasted
Touch (body sensations)
The cognised (thought)

When you say “there’s a feeling with thoughts saying that there is control”, it is good to drill down and be specific, in terms of these 6 categories.

What we commonly call a “feeling” is actually usually a body sensation + thought label. Can you see that if you take a look now?
Who is there to hold on to a thought?
I exist in a thought, or rather a series of seemingly related thoughts. Thoughts don’t really have any power,, they more exist as a screen between ae and I don’t know what...not a viewer, more like a conscious void.
Exactly! Who indeed!

And it was clearly seen that the concept of “I” is just that - only an imaginary concept - which lives inside a thought, thought has no ability to DO anything at all.
Is it in fact, only thought which SAYS that you control all these things?
Lol that seems to be the case
So where does a belief in an “I” or being “in control” remain now?

In the sense of being in a “body” perhaps? This is a common one.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:11 pm

What we commonly call a “feeling” is actually usually a body sensation + thought label. Can you see that if you take a look now?
Oh, for sure!
So where does a belief in an “I” or being “in control” remain now?

In the sense of being in a “body” perhaps? This is a common one.
Not so much in being a body, since so often it’s “my body” instead of “me.”

If it exists anywhere, I’d have to say in the sense of being an observer, which seems true, but it’s caked by a swarm of “I” thoughts and impulses to control so hard to tell 🤷‍♀️

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:31 pm

“my body”
Whose body???

To what is this "my" referring to?
If it exists anywhere, I’d have to say in the sense of being an observer
Where is this observer? Can it be found in direct experience, or is that a thought story too?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:13 pm

Whose body???

To what is this "my" referring to?
No one's really, the "my" is referring to a thought construct.
Where is this observer? Can it be found in direct experience, or is that a thought story too?
No it can't, it's also just a thought story.

There seems to be something that I can only describe as being "behind" everything, unseeable, but I think that's just a story, too. If I'm really looking, all I can say is that there is only seeing, only experience, but that seems too simple!


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