To see or not to see?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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suma
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To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Sun May 27, 2018 5:22 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Yes, there is no self, nothing to find anywhrere. I can totally singn this. However thougth process keeps on sneeking in behind every corner.
I went through the seven steps by reading and it is really funny what happend. I also read a good deal in "Gatecrashers" which was delightful.

What are you looking for at LU?
"You either see it or don't" it is quoted. Then I definitly don't see it. But right from the moment I started to get in contact with LU there is a constant flow of intense and extremly soft energy. Maybe not to be mistaken some guidence would be of great help. Some sort of process seemed to have been set in motion.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To clearly point out what is true. And to open my eyes to places where I used to close them. I'm expecting that a guide knows about the traps (I constantly seem to fall back into) and give advises to deal with them.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
In my adolescense years I wanted to know what death is. I really wanted to know. Of course not by dying. I started taking drugs and a friend of mine became sort of a guru for me. He and his friend took so much stuff with the intention to find a place beyond thought. But this was soon to much for me. Them I came in contact with Vipassana by SN Goenka and this really hit me. Soon I stopped all drinking and smoking and my life changed about 180°. More then two decades I was quite deeply engaged in that. Then however I found the organisation to be more important than any progress and somehow the whole thing had come to an end. I lived until then the life of a recluse working very little and meditating a lot. Then again life took a totally 180° shift and I married and got a daugter. Now I'm living a very peaceful life with my husband and the girl who is 8 years now. My basic intention in all that was that people were telling me: "Yes, living alone as a recluse like you it is easy to meditate and keep a peaceful mind. I'm having a busy family life and have no time to meditate." I wanted to test wether it is really impossible and of course it is not.
But in reality this was not intentionally decided by me - it just happend and I went along.
And now I found a place like this (LU) which I find totally mindblowing that it is possible nowadays.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10
Now. Here. That.

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Seamist
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby Seamist » Sun May 27, 2018 1:58 pm

Hi Suma
I'd be happy to be your guide. I'm new to it, so would have a mentor to oversee my guiding.
How does that sound to you?
Prabhakari

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Seamist
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby Seamist » Sun May 27, 2018 5:12 pm

Just to add that I'm a Buddhist in the Triratna Community and that I competed LU last August.

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suma
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm

Dear Prabhakari,

thanks for your reply. Yes, I would be happy and grateful for any guidence.
I'm just a bit pusseld that you call yourself a buddhist.
I mean an organised religion in a forum that wants to question all believes - as it was understood by me...




heartly greetings

suma
Now. Here. That.

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Seamist
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby Seamist » Sun May 27, 2018 10:38 pm

So, would you prefer to be guided by someone who didn't identify as a Buddhist? It sounds like maybe you would... Which is absolutely fine by me.
I think that you would need to start again with another post to attract another guide. There are quite a few of us, si that wouldn't be a problem.
Up to you.

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suma
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Mon May 28, 2018 10:44 am

Dear Prabhakari,

please don't get me wrong. Or maybe I got it wrong. The point that made me wonder was just that someone who might be free of the "me identification" uses such terms. Whether it is a buddhist or adyashantist or coca-colaist...
As my education or how to call it is mainly based on the teaching of buddha of course someone like you would be most suiting. However I would never call myself a buddhist, because as far as I understood the buddha never was inclined to establish a religion. But maybe I'm also wrong in that. It is just an assumption.


All the best

suma
Now. Here. That.

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Seamist
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby Seamist » Mon May 28, 2018 10:54 am

Hi, it's fine, I just think you might be better off with someone else, in that case.
Wishing you well

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suma
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Mon May 28, 2018 11:05 am

Ok.
It's not up to me to decide that anyway.
All the best
suma
Now. Here. That.

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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby forgetmenot » Tue May 29, 2018 12:12 am

Hi Suma,

My name is Kay and I am happy to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions, but it is up to you to do the looking, as you have to see what is being pointed at for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This is not about discovering what you are; it is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can begin the exploration.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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suma
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Tue May 29, 2018 11:53 am

Dear Kay,

yes, I'm ready.

greetings

suma
Now. Here. That.

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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby forgetmenot » Tue May 29, 2018 1:23 pm

Hey Suma,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and on how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration, in your own words could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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suma
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Tue May 29, 2018 3:36 pm

Dear Kay,

thank you so much for all this.
Here are the answers to the questions:

How will life change?
How will life change?

This identification with the flow of thoughts might stop. Excitements might become unimportant. There’s no more need for self proving and self improving activities.

How will you change?


The inner tension might become unimportant. There won’t be any reason to react or respond to the behaviour or demands of others by inner tension. Without that tension I would be more open to others and able to relate to them more adequate. There might be more love and kindness.

What will be different?

Life might change totally or not at all and it won’t matter. I think without a me identification things needed to be done will be done just for the sake of being done.
The constant talk to myself with endless comments usually involved here might be seen as useless.
What is missing?

To be more focused and more aware of what actually is.
To be just here rather than being busy anywhere at numberless places.
To reduce unnecessary distractions (I’m keeping my mind busy most of the time)


with heartily greetings

suma


(I don't know wheter the quoted passages will turn blue)
Now. Here. That.

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forgetmenot
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby forgetmenot » Wed May 30, 2018 1:10 am

Hello Suma,
I don't know wheter the quoted passages will turn blue
They won’t turn blue and they don’t need to, that is why we use the quote function. I only highlight them in blue so you know what questions I would like answered. Please have another look at the link on how to use the quote function. It keeps the thread tidy and legible.


https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

The following questions were asked so that we could both become aware of expectations. When you read my responses I want you to notice what emotions and thoughts arise for you ie anger, fear, resistance, calm etc and to let me know. Expectations are nothing more than an idea (thought) – a mental concept. A meaning is given to both the expectation and the current experience which are then compared and labelled as “liberation” or “not liberation” because of how it is being perceived, and for the desire for liberation to look the way we want it to look/feel. Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. There is nothing to be done with expectations, other than to become aware of them.
How will life change?
This identification with the flow of thoughts might stop. Excitements might become unimportant. There’s no more need for self proving and self improving activities.
Yes, eventually the seeming identification with thought dissipates. However, there is no one/no thing that is identifying with the “flow of thoughts”. Not identifying with all thoughts won’t happen during this exploration. There are many beliefs that will still need to be looked at after ‘gating’, as not all beliefs are seen through in one foul swoop. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is an important first step in the greater journey of awakening to reality. It’s a necessary step, but is by no means the end of the ride.
How will you change?
The inner tension might become unimportant. There won’t be any reason to react or respond to the behaviour or demands of others by inner tension. Without that tension I would be more open to others and able to relate to them more adequate. There might be more love and kindness.
There has NEVER been a separate self. Not yesterday, not now, not tomorrow. There is no ‘you’ to be the thinker, doer, feeler or sayer. Love and kindness may or may not become more prevalent. Since there is no ‘you/Suma’, to what exactly would that matter? Tension is simply the appearance of a sensation and in and of itself has no meaning, it is only thoughts that give it meaning and thoughts know nothing.
What will be different?
Life might change totally or not at all and it won’t matter. I think without a me identification things needed to be done will be done just for the sake of being done.
The constant talk to myself with endless comments usually involved here might be seen as useless.
There was never a ‘you’ doing anything. Life happens but it is happening to no one…life is simply lifing. You are not the author of thought. Thoughts simply arise and subside. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after awakening.
What is missing?
To be more focused and more aware of what actually is.
To be just here rather than being busy anywhere at numberless places.
To reduce unnecessary distractions (I’m keeping my mind busy most of the time)
There is never anything missing. Experience is seamless, whole and complete. You (not Petra) are always aware of what is, and you are always here! Where else could you be? Just because many thoughts are appearing and it seems like you are ‘lost in thought’, doesn’t mean that that is so. You are always aware of when thoughts are appearing, even the thought “I am lost in thought”, or “my mind is busy”.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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suma
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Wed May 30, 2018 10:10 am

Dear Kay,

the text was just ready and beautifully layout with nice quotes and then the page collapsed.
Good to have a copy in word jet the quotation thing needs to be done again. Here we go:


“A meaning is given to both the expectation and the current experience which are then compared and labelled as “liberation” or “not liberation” because of how it is being perceived, and for the desire for liberation to look the way we want it to look/feel.”

Yes, this point seems to be very important to me. There is a gap or a felt gap. I’ve read this passage several times.

“Yes, eventually the seeming identification with thought dissipates. However, there is no one/no thing that is identifying with the “flow of thoughts”. Not identifying with all thoughts won’t happen during this exploration. There are many beliefs that will still need to be looked at after ‘gating’, as not all beliefs are seen through in one foul swoop. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is an important first step in the greater journey of awakening to reality. It’s a necessary step, but is by no means the end of the ride.”

Ok.

“There has NEVER been a separate self. Not yesterday, not now, not tomorrow. There is no ‘you’ to be the thinker, doer, feeler or sayer. Love and kindness may or may not become more prevalent. Since there is no ‘you/Suma’, to what exactly would that matter? Tension is simply the appearance of a sensation and in and of itself has no meaning, it is only thoughts that give it meaning and thoughts know nothing.”

That is very relieving. When there is no dog no dog can be kicked.

“There has NEVER been a separate self. Not yesterday, not now, not tomorrow. There is no ‘you’ to be the thinker, doer, feeler or sayer. Love and kindness may or may not become more prevalent. Since there is no ‘you/Suma’, to what exactly would that matter? Tension is simply the appearance of a sensation and in and of itself has no meaning, it is only thoughts that give it meaning and thoughts know nothing.

Yes, they know nothing. I’ve seen it so many times. Being exited about something wich later turnes out to be totally mistaken. Yet they trap me again and again

"There was never a ‘you’ doing anything. Life happens but it is happening to no one…life is simply lifing. You are not the author of thought. Thoughts simply arise and subside. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after awakening."

When I’m not the author of my thoughts than they have as much meaning as listening to a radio broadcast.


"There is never anything missing. Experience is seamless, whole and complete. You (not Petra) are always aware of what is, and you are always here! Where else could you be? Just because many thoughts are appearing and it seems like you are ‘lost in thought’, doesn’t mean that that is so. You are always aware of when thoughts are appearing, even the thought “I am lost in thought”, or “my mind is busy”.

Yes. like a radio playing all the time in full volume that has nothing to do with to what’s actually going on. Sitting here is sitting here.
You know, when starting into the LU I was sitting on the toilet and the mind was totally blank.
There was just sitting there and looking at the wall and then suddenly out of nowhere into the total silence my voice was telling loudly to my daughter in the kitchen nearby: “Please go and brush your teeth. It is important to do that.” and then again blank silence.
This experience was revealing as there was no prior thought about the issue and this talking just happened. It came out of nowhere. Yet it was totally normal. It would have also happened the same way when my mind was busy thinking something. But it was the first time this came into awareness. So what you are writing resonates totally with a big YES
inside me or how to say it.
Now. Here. That.

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suma
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Re: To see or not to see?

Postby suma » Wed May 30, 2018 10:12 am

I've just sent it like that because suddenly your answers was also gone, so no more text to quote.
I hope it's ok the way Ive done it..

All the best

suma
Now. Here. That.


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