Guiding beyond gate

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Anne71
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Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:20 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self is an illusion built by thoughts, sensations, a name, a body and emotions.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'd like to be guided after the gate, please. I realized, that self is an illusion, that thoughts and emotions come and go, that they are not me... Family members are worried and think I have a depression.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I' d like to talk to somebody more experienced. Maybe I am not ok and I should do something? Besides of my families worries, I am content, most of the time. Sometimes there is fear (am i wasting my life? Am i hiding and using noself as excuse?) Sometimes there are intense emotions like anger or sadness. Rarely happyness. No motivation to do anything bc everything ist empty and non permanent. :-)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Buddhism. Meditation.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:37 pm

Hey Anne,

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self is an illusion built by thoughts, sensations, a name, a body and emotions.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'd like to be guided after the gate, please. I realized, that self is an illusion, that thoughts and emotions come and go, that they are not me... Family members are worried and think I have a depression.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I' d like to talk to somebody more experienced. Maybe I am not ok and I should do something? Besides of my families worries, I am content, most of the time. Sometimes there is fear (am i wasting my life? Am i hiding and using noself as excuse?) Sometimes there are intense emotions like anger or sadness. Rarely happyness. No motivation to do anything bc everything ist empty and non permanent. :-)

I'm glad to see your sense of humour has remained strong. :)

Shall we explore together?

With warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Anne71
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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:54 pm

Hi John,

Yes! Let's explore together!

Anne

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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:02 pm

Yes! Let's explore together!

Great.

Be good to get a sense of what brought you to this point, so if you could share any significant aspects/happenings with respect to seeing/realising/whatever you want to call it. :)

Thank you,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Anne71
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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:03 am

Be good to get a sense of what brought you to this point, so if you could share any significant aspects/happenings with respect to seeing/realising/whatever you want to call it. :)
I always thougt of me as a dreamer with lots of beautiful dreams (and worries too, of course). I reached some goals and there was a lot of frustration.
Through buddhist teachings and through experience I realised, that nothing is permanent and will make me happy forever.
So why bother?
Why invest time and energy and money in goals and be disappointed?
I m not a buddhist expert. Some of the concepts i experienced as true. Other concepts i do not believe in bc - well they just might be stories.

Last year I was guided and i experienced, that I am not my body. I felt free and relieved (for a while). I know that I can not control my thoughts and emotions. There are still a lot of stories and beliefs. I recognize them more and more.
At the moment I seem passive and not very emotional. I am ok with that; before I was oscillating between hope/ big dreams and disappointment.
I am not sure how to explain other people what is going on. A family member is worried, that I am depressed.
There is passiveness, but I dont have too many worries or extreme circling of negative thoughts like two years ago. Maybe everything is settling down.
I read about the dark night of the soul. I lost the hopes and excitement that came with them, which is ok, they were only thougths.
But it seems like all the negative thoughts (about politics, society) stick to me and weigh me down. I know they are beliefs. But the body behaves otherwise. I guess this will go away, too.
My mind is trying to construct a new beliefsystem - how to relate to other people. People react to my appearance, my thoughts, emotions. I dont want to act as if i were happy or having a plan.

For me it was always important to know and understand everything. Now i am ok to say ‘it is a mystery what happens after death’ for example. I’ m ok with not knowing everything. I just dont want to believe in stories.

Sometimes there is still the need to have control and a plan. There are some ideas/wishes about the future but they crumble away. There is not enough motivation behind them.
I live very simple now. I mostly stopped grasping at good things but there is still aversion, anger.
I guess i keep on s makeing less and less difference between things i like and dislike. Everything just happens and is an adventure.
Or maybe i just have to face emptyness?
I wish i knew which urges to follow. At the moment i feel like a stone instead of a free flowing stream. It seems like only negative circumstances can push me to do something.

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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:16 am

Hi Anne,

Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing this. I'm just going to make a few comments along the way for your interest.
I always thougt of me as a dreamer with lots of beautiful dreams (and worries too, of course). I reached some goals and there was a lot of frustration.
Through buddhist teachings and through experience I realised, that nothing is permanent and will make me happy forever.
So why bother?
Why invest time and energy and money in goals and be disappointed?
I m not a buddhist expert. Some of the concepts i experienced as true. Other concepts i do not believe in bc - well they just might be stories.

There are two concepts 'permanence' and 'impermanence'. Tools, if you will. And these tools were constructed because some folk were very attached to their possessions. You can buy a lovely orange, but it will soon go off :) so best enjoy it now.

Impermanence reflects the beauty in life, the scent of an old rose, the eddies in a river, the chirp of a robin.

So, the idea of 'impermanence' can certainly be used to justify passivity. But this is not really what its pointing to.

Look around you to see how impermanence shines in the trees, the words of friends, the coming and going of the day.

Last year I was guided and i experienced, that I am not my body. I felt free and relieved (for a while). I know that I can not control my thoughts and emotions. There are still a lot of stories and beliefs. I recognize them more and more.
At the moment I seem passive and not very emotional. I am ok with that; before I was oscillating between hope/ big dreams and disappointment.

What do you suppose is this 'I' that is not the body?

What do you suppose is this 'I' that has no control over thoughts?

The passivity is because you are adjusting from living through the narrative of 'Anne' to being you. It's a bit of a something and nothing state. And you are not alone in that!

I am not sure how to explain other people what is going on. A family member is worried, that I am depressed.
There is passiveness, but I dont have too many worries or extreme circling of negative thoughts like two years ago. Maybe everything is settling down.
I read about the dark night of the soul. I lost the hopes and excitement that came with them, which is ok, they were only thougths.
But it seems like all the negative thoughts (about politics, society) stick to me and weigh me down. I know they are beliefs. But the body behaves otherwise. I guess this will go away, too.
My mind is trying to construct a new beliefsystem - how to relate to other people. People react to my appearance, my thoughts, emotions. I dont want to act as if i were happy or having a plan.

As above, passivity would look like depression to family. They don't see the shift in underlying structure. In many ways, this passive place is as much of a fiction as the fiction of 'self'. We can be just as deluded in this, as we were identifying as 'John' or 'Anne'.

This might be a tough point to accept, especially after hard-won awakening through 'self', but it's also a common effect of that.

For me it was always important to know and understand everything. Now i am ok to say ‘it is a mystery what happens after death’ for example. I’ m ok with not knowing everything. I just dont want to believe in stories.

Spot on Anne! Unless it's Winnie-the-Pooh, then I'm completely immersed. :D

Sometimes there is still the need to have control and a plan. There are some ideas/wishes about the future but they crumble away. There is not enough motivation behind them.

Motivation used to come from the narrative of 'Anne', why she does this, that, the other. No narrative, no reason to do stuff, no motivation. So its the adjustment from living as narrative, to living life as you, wonderful you. :) That's the direction of travel, should you wish to walk that way.

I live very simple now. I mostly stopped grasping at good things but there is still aversion, anger.
I guess i keep on s makeing less and less difference between things i like and dislike. Everything just happens and is an adventure.
Or maybe i just have to face emptyness?
I wish i knew which urges to follow. At the moment i feel like a stone instead of a free flowing stream. It seems like only negative circumstances can push me to do something.

Yeah, we don't want to go down the emptiness route. Just another rabbit hole.

Live is to be enjoyed, so we look for ways to move towards that.

Have a ponder on the comments, and I look forward to your thoughts.

With warmest wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Anne71
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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:30 am

Hi John,
thank you for your beautiful words.
It seems like you understand ‘where’ i am, that feels very supportive.

(‘Impermanence is a tool….’)
So, the idea of 'impermanence' can certainly be used to justify passivity. But this is not really what its pointing to.
Look around you to see how impermanence shines in the trees, the words of friends, the coming and going of the day.

Yes, with impermanence there is growth and different weather and also pain and healing and death.

What do you suppose is this 'I' that is not the body?
What do you suppose is this 'I' that has no control over thoughts?

I don’t know. It’ s a mystery :-)
I could call it life.
With this in mind + impermanence it’s life that is offering millions of gifts every day.
Maybe it’s a call to come and play.

The passivity is because you are adjusting from living through the narrative of 'Anne' to being you. It's a bit of a something and nothing state. And you are not alone in that!

In many ways, this passive place is as much of a fiction as the fiction of 'self'. We can be just as deluded in this, as we were identifying as 'John' or 'Anne'.

Motivation used to come from the narrative of 'Anne', why she does this, that, the other. No narrative, no reason to do stuff, no motivation. So its the adjustment from living as narrative, to living life as you, wonderful you. :)
Yes, i get that motivation is a concept connected to a person.
I am in this passive state now for about a year. My mind was trying to construct a new persona ‘Anne’, fearless and outgoing for example to get going again. (Didn’t work by the way. Too exhausting to play a person.)

It’s a really weird state. I do little stuff, but no big things (moving to a different place or looking for a new job) and i kind of wait for a flash of inspiration or a sign or a new goal. Will it be like this for the rest of my life?

That's the direction of travel, should you wish to walk that way.

The word ‘travel’ and ‘walk’ don’t quite fit for my feeling. Did you choose them on purpose to imply movement?
My belief is that life unfolds in front of me or comes towards me (this might be the reason of my passivity.)

Live is to be enjoyed, so we look for ways to move towards that.

Wouldn’t ‘enjoyment’ be a new narrative/motivation?


Other people believe, that you have to be useful or be super successful.
But i have the same belief like you… life is offering so much beauty and interesting stuff, that it should be appreciated and explored and celebrated (that sounds nice :-))
But as Anne i got lost and tired.

How do i move towards s.th.without having expectations and being disappointed?
Thoughts can not be controlled, so i just notice disapp.mnt and take it as feedback?

How do ‘i move towards that’ anyway?
I mean - really, there are people walking around and i sit in a chair, watching them and think: “How do they f** walk?”

I must sound totally stupid :-)

The illusion ‘Anne’ didn’t control anything and stuff got done and Anne walked around. But after the gate, its different - although only the illusion is gone. How will the adjustment happen?


I love Pooh, too. Wouldn’t it be lovely to have a little cottage or a treehouse in Christopher Robin’s woods?
I’d love to write a book and crawl into it and live there.
But thats not how life works. Life writes the stories. So i guess i have to trust in interesting things and lovely surprises happening.

Have a beautiful day :-)

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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:32 am

Hi Anne,
Hi John,
thank you for your beautiful words.
It seems like you understand ‘where’ i am, that feels very supportive.

I've been there. :)

Yes, with impermanence there is growth and different weather and also pain and healing and death.

Quite. So if we consider impermanence, we see it in the round.
If we view only the 'its all impermanent, so what's the point' then we do what supports that.
But then a smile is impermanent. Is it not a joy to smile with another. Sure it is. :)
I don’t know. It’ s a mystery :-)
I could call it life.
With this in mind + impermanence it’s life that is offering millions of gifts every day.
Maybe it’s a call to come and play.

Come and play - exactly!!!

Yes, i get that motivation is a concept connected to a person.
I am in this passive state now for about a year. My mind was trying to construct a new persona ‘Anne’, fearless and outgoing for example to get going again. (Didn’t work by the way. Too exhausting to play a person.)

Yeah, I can imagine.

It’s a really weird state. I do little stuff, but no big things (moving to a different place or looking for a new job) and i kind of wait for a flash of inspiration or a sign or a new goal. Will it be like this for the rest of my life?

I know. The old ways of doing stuff, don't seem to apply anyone. I'm not 'John', so why do what appealed to 'John'? So I'll just sit, and put the kettle on.

Wouldn’t ‘enjoyment’ be a new narrative/motivation?

Narratives are as much part of life as a flower.

The thing with narratives is when we believe they are true, and act accordingly. Then, we are walking zombies, following our socially conditioned narrative.

The beneficial side of narratives is that, at times, they help us to navigate through life. Say planning a trip. The narrative of 'trip' and 'accommodation' and 'booking' and 'terms and conditions'. So narratives are fine, because we are using them as a way to map life, structure it. We don't need to immerse in them as true to make best use of them. Without narratives, we'd be just dribbling in a chair. Every time you do anything, you're using narratives, just unconscious ones e.g. brushing your teeth.

Other people believe, that you have to be useful or be super successful.
But i have the same belief like you… life is offering so much beauty and interesting stuff, that it should be appreciated and explored and celebrated (that sounds nice :-))

Yeah, life is such a wonderful mystery. It intrigues me, energises me. :)

But as Anne i got lost and tired.

Yep, its takes a lot of energy to maintain a persona.

How do i move towards s.th.without having expectations and being disappointed?
Thoughts can not be controlled, so i just notice disapp.mnt and take it as feedback?

Well, we take it a step at a time. Bottom line is perception. You see life, and yourself, a certain way. That perception shapes what you do, don't do. So, as with self-inquiry, our job is to challenge our perceptions, to free them up. Because they have a knack of getting fixated, like a rusty nut. As perceptions change, we see new possibilities, and on we go.

How do ‘i move towards that’ anyway?
I mean - really, there are people walking around and i sit in a chair, watching them and think: “How do they f** walk?”

I must sound totally stupid :-)

Not at all. I get that totally. Stripped of narrative, everything looks fucking weird. :D

The illusion ‘Anne’ didn’t control anything and stuff got done and Anne walked around. But after the gate, its different - although only the illusion is gone. How will the adjustment happen?

Step by step, and a willingness to recognise and challenge perceptions. Especially any you have maybe fought for, and are holding onto for dear life. :)

I love Pooh, too. Wouldn’t it be lovely to have a little cottage or a treehouse in Christopher Robin’s woods?
I’d love to write a book and crawl into it and live there.
But thats not how life works. Life writes the stories. So i guess i have to trust in interesting things and lovely surprises happening.

Pooh and Piglet were walking through the wood on a dull spring morning.
"Pooh, can I ask you something?"
"Certainly," said Pooh, wondering where he'd left the honey pot.
"WOL said the other day that life writes the stories."
"Hmmmm," said Pooh, sensing Piglet had more to say.
"Well, does that mean we just wait for them to come to us?"
Pooh was listening, but had become distracted by a large bumble bee on a dandelion.
"Pooh, did you hear my question?" said Piglet, a bit annoyed.
"Oh, yes, yes," said Pooh, "I was just pondering on it."
"And...?" said Piglet.
"Well," said Pooh, "Never forget that you are also part of making the story. You are not apart from life."
"Fuck, that's it," said Piglet.
"What have I told you about swearing," said Pooh.
"Oops, sorry," said Piglet, now wondering about the next chapter we wants to write.

Have a beautiful day :-)

You too!

Have a ponder on the above, and share your thoughts.

Warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:14 am

Hi John :-)

Quite. So if we consider impermanence, we see it in the round.
If we view only the 'its all impermanent, so what's the point' then we do what supports that.
But then a smile is impermanent. Is it not a joy to smile with another. Sure it is. :)


Yes :-) smiling is easy.
The problems come with things that you work for very hard and dont turn out like you wanted it to be.


I know. The old ways of doing stuff, don't seem to apply anyone. I'm not 'John', so why do what appealed to 'John'?

Do you challenge yourself by doing stuff John would never have done?


Narratives are as much part of life as a flower.
The thing with narratives is when we believe they are true, and act accordingly. Then, we are walking zombies, following our socially conditioned narrative.

The beneficial side of narratives is that, at times, they help us to navigate through life. (...)

Bottom line is perception. You see life, and yourself, a certain way. That perception shapes what you do, don't do. So, as with self-inquiry, our job is to challenge our perceptions, to free them up. Because they have a knack of getting fixated, like a rusty nut. As perceptions change, we see new possibilities, and on we go.

I see.
Yesterday i had a kind of Eeyore-day. But imagine him with a chainsaw and screaming like Bruce Lee.
What you wrote about narratives and perceptions was spot on. I read it in the evening and recognized the beliefs behind the anger.


Step by step, and a willingness to recognise and challenge perceptions. Especially any you have maybe fought for, and are holding onto for dear life. :)

This is a extremly tough thing.
I learned and formed perceptions from experience and media and family. Perceptions helped me to be loved or successful or not to get hurt or avoid failure. I guess they also set tight boundaries where none were necessary and prevented me from exploring new things.
It will be a hell of a job to check and change the perceptions.
It feels like having to be a newborn baby again and being willing to get hurt and fail over and over again.
My experiences and what i learned are precious to me. I earned them by paying with pain and loss.

Well i guess thats not a positive narrative or perception I have :-)

You are talking about a beginners mind, aren’t you?

Later: In the past months i realised a lot of beliefs I have about my self. I was very willing to drop them, because i was not very happy and i thought i was the problem.
But I see now that I have a lot of beliefs about things outside of me like ‘how to be successful/attractive/survive’, too.
I guess I will not lose the feeling of being seperate from others, if I don’t work on this beliefs.
They belong together: If I think the world is cruel, i think i have to be strong.
If i think the world is mean, i think i have to be sneaky and cheat.
So if i want to losen the screw of beliefs about myself, I have to losen the screw of beliefs about the world too.
And maybe later the separation of object and subject will go away, too?

Pooh and Piglet were walking through the wood on a dull spring morning.
"Pooh, can I ask you something?"
"Certainly," said Pooh, wondering where he'd left the honey pot.
"WOL said the other day that life writes the stories."
"Hmmmm," said Pooh, sensing Piglet had more to say.
"Well, does that mean we just wait for them to come to us?"
Pooh was listening, but had become distracted by a large bumble bee on a dandelion.
"Pooh, did you hear my question?" said Piglet, a bit annoyed.
"Oh, yes, yes," said Pooh, "I was just pondering on it."
"And...?" said Piglet.
"Well," said Pooh, "Never forget that you are also part of making the story. You are not apart from life."
"Fuck, that's it," said Piglet.
"What have I told you about swearing," said Pooh.
"Oops, sorry," said Piglet, now wondering about the next chapter he wants to write.

Pooh visits Piglet.
“Didn’t you forget to bring something?”, asks Piglet.
“I wanted to bring something?”, Pooh asks puzzled. “What was it?”
Piglet sights: “It isn’t working.”
“What are you talking about?”
Piglet fetches a big book. “I got this from Christopher Robin to write my stories down.” Piglet opens the book and shows it to Pooh. “And here I wrote that Pooh visits Piglet and brings him a red balloon as a surprise.”
“Hmh”, says Pooh and scatches his head. “I didn’t know, it was today, that I bring a red balloon.”
“Well, that is why I added the word ‘surprise’ ”, Piglet offers as explanation.
“I see.” Pooh nods his head. “I am very surprised.”
“Are you?” Piglet smiles.
“Yes, ideed. Definitely surprised and a bit confused.”

“Let’s go and visit Eeyore”, says Pooh. “Ok, I’ll show him my book”, Piglet beams proudly.
Eeyore is chewing on a thistle and watches Pooh and Piglet approaching.
“What a lovely day”, Pooh greets.
“At least it isn’t raining”, Eeyore answers and swallows the thistle.
“Look what I got from Christopher Robin.” Piglet is out of breath and drops his book in front of Eeyore.
Eeyore flips through the blank pages.“Seems like you got robbed or you lost them.”
“Robbed?”, squeaks Piglet.
“Yes, the letters are missing - all these circles and dots and squiggles” says Eeyore.
“They are not missing”, Piglet answers relieved, “they are still in here.” And he shows Eeyore his pencil.
“This is the book of Piglets life”, explains Pooh. “And what he writes down in it, might happen someday.”
“That does not sound very convincing.” Eeyore shakes his head. “But you could use the pages in the winter to make a fire and warm your feet.”
“Nooo”, shouts Piglet. He sits down and opens the book in his lap. “I will show you.” He starts writing. His tongue is sticking out of the corner of his mouth. He is contentrating very hard to write down the letters in the correct order because that is how language works.
Pooh peaks over Piglets shoulder and reads out loud: “One lovely morning Eeyore is eating thistles.”
“Hmh”, makes Eeyore.
“His friends Pooh and Piglet come to visit him”, reads Pooh.
Eeyore nodds his head in approval and takes a bite of a fresh thistle.
“Together they sing and dance and roll around in the grass”, reads Pooh.
Eeyore choughs and spits out the thistle he was chewing on. “You must have read the wrong name, Pooh”, he criticises. “That does not sound like a story about me.”
Piglet shows Eeyore the page: “You see, here is written ‘Eeyore’.”
“Nah, this story sounds more like a Tigger-story”, states Eeyore. “And the last time I checked, I did not have Tigger-stripes.”
“How about you forget for a while, that you are Eeyore?”, suggests Pooh. “Until we are finished with singing and dancing and rolling around in the gras?”
“How about you forget for a while, that you are Pooh and try a thistle?”, answers Eeyore.
Piglet laughs out loud.

Anne

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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:22 am

Pooh visits Piglet.
“Didn’t you forget to bring something?”, asks Piglet.
“I wanted to bring something?”, Pooh asks puzzled. “What was it?”
Piglet sights: “It isn’t working.”
“What are you talking about?”
Piglet fetches a big book. “I got this from Christopher Robin to write my stories down.” Piglet opens the book and shows it to Pooh. “And here I wrote that Pooh visits Piglet and brings him a red balloon as a surprise.”
“Hmh”, says Pooh and scatches his head. “I didn’t know, it was today, that I bring a red balloon.”
“Well, that is why I added the word ‘surprise’ ”, Piglet offers as explanation.
“I see.” Pooh nods his head. “I am very surprised.”
“Are you?” Piglet smiles.
“Yes, ideed. Definitely surprised and a bit confused.”

“Let’s go and visit Eeyore”, says Pooh. “Ok, I’ll show him my book”, Piglet beams proudly.
Eeyore is chewing on a thistle and watches Pooh and Piglet approaching.
“What a lovely day”, Pooh greets.
“At least it isn’t raining”, Eeyore answers and swallows the thistle.
“Look what I got from Christopher Robin.” Piglet is out of breath and drops his book in front of Eeyore.
Eeyore flips through the blank pages.“Seems like you got robbed or you lost them.”
“Robbed?”, squeaks Piglet.
“Yes, the letters are missing - all these circles and dots and squiggles” says Eeyore.
“They are not missing”, Piglet answers relieved, “they are still in here.” And he shows Eeyore his pencil.
“This is the book of Piglets life”, explains Pooh. “And what he writes down in it, might happen someday.”
“That does not sound very convincing.” Eeyore shakes his head. “But you could use the pages in the winter to make a fire and warm your feet.”
“Nooo”, shouts Piglet. He sits down and opens the book in his lap. “I will show you.” He starts writing. His tongue is sticking out of the corner of his mouth. He is contentrating very hard to write down the letters in the correct order because that is how language works.
Pooh peaks over Piglets shoulder and reads out loud: “One lovely morning Eeyore is eating thistles.”
“Hmh”, makes Eeyore.
“His friends Pooh and Piglet come to visit him”, reads Pooh.
Eeyore nodds his head in approval and takes a bite of a fresh thistle.
“Together they sing and dance and roll around in the grass”, reads Pooh.
Eeyore choughs and spits out the thistle he was chewing on. “You must have read the wrong name, Pooh”, he criticises. “That does not sound like a story about me.”
Piglet shows Eeyore the page: “You see, here is written ‘Eeyore’.”
“Nah, this story sounds more like a Tigger-story”, states Eeyore. “And the last time I checked, I did not have Tigger-stripes.”
“How about you forget for a while, that you are Eeyore?”, suggests Pooh. “Until we are finished with singing and dancing and rolling around in the gras?”
“How about you forget for a while, that you are Pooh and try a thistle?”, answers Eeyore.
Piglet laughs out loud.

Genius! Love it. :D
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Anne71
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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:40 am

Yeah, i got inspired by you :-)

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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:49 am

Hi Anne,
Yes :-) smiling is easy.
The problems come with things that you work for very hard and dont turn out like you wanted it to be.

Sure, it's nice when things come off.
The narrative of "working very hard, and investing in the outcome", is of course, what we all did for years. Disappointment, expectation of failure, sadness, anger...etc.
At the centre of this narrative is "me". Take "me" out and the story loses all its juice.
In seeing that I am not the characterisation 'Anne', 'John', the narrative becomes more fluid.
It doesn't have to be this way or that, because I am not the 'I' in the narrative.
This doesn't mean I don't work hard, or don't really want some outcome to occur, or even that I don't tell myself stories about that, in which I am the main character, 'I'.
The crux is our fusion with the character. Identification.

I know. The old ways of doing stuff, don't seem to apply anyone. I'm not 'John', so why do what appealed to 'John'?
Do you challenge yourself by doing stuff John would never have done?

I don't use 'John' as a reference point. 'He' is long gone.
But yes, I'm forever doing things I've never done. I enjoy the challenge, and if it goes belly up, so be it. :)

I see.

...said Piglet. :D

Yesterday i had a kind of Eeyore-day. But imagine him with a chainsaw and screaming like Bruce Lee.
What you wrote about narratives and perceptions was spot on. I read it in the evening and recognized the beliefs behind the anger.

Good.

Step by step, and a willingness to recognise and challenge perceptions. Especially any you have maybe fought for, and are holding onto for dear life. :)

This is a extremly tough thing.
I learned and formed perceptions from experience and media and family. Perceptions helped me to be loved or successful or not to get hurt or avoid failure. I guess they also set tight boundaries where none were necessary and prevented me from exploring new things.
It will be a hell of a job to check and change the perceptions.

It's not really quite as we might perceive it to be.
A small shift here, a tiny shift there.

Also, by 'change', I mean we get clear on what we perceive to be the case. We do have to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves, because we are masters of self-deception. Especially when deep down, we don't really want to see.
So yes, it does require courage, a willingness to shake ourselves, to see what we don't want to see.
For example, I remember one occasion, seeing how much I hated myself. Fuck, I didn't like that. But on the other hand, I was strangely relieved, because it was true, and there is something about stuff that's true, even if its painful, that we respect.

It feels like having to be a newborn baby again and being willing to get hurt and fail over and over again.
My experiences and what i learned are precious to me. I earned them by paying with pain and loss.

Well i guess thats not a positive narrative or perception I have :-)

Again, we don't perceive it as this great big task. To an extent, its a turn of mood, away from old perceptions (however much they were fought for), to what's true, and to be new.

You are talking about a beginners mind, aren’t you?

Yes, in the sense of being willing to give yourself a fresh start.
To draw a line, if you will, and say yep, ok, this got me to here, and I deeply appreciate and respect that, but now, it's not helping, and its time to forge a new approach - why? Because I want to enjoy life, its ups and downs, light and dark. Be engaged with life.

Later: In the past months i realised a lot of beliefs I have about my self. I was very willing to drop them, because i was not very happy and i thought i was the problem.
But I see now that I have a lot of beliefs about things outside of me like ‘how to be successful/attractive/survive’, too.
I guess I will not lose the feeling of being seperate from others, if I don’t work on this beliefs.
They belong together: If I think the world is cruel, i think i have to be strong.
If i think the world is mean, i think i have to be sneaky and cheat.
So if i want to losen the screw of beliefs about myself, I have to losen the screw of beliefs about the world too.
And maybe later the separation of object and subject will go away, too?

Yes, spot on. When you come across something that you saw as true like ‘how to be successful/attractive/survive’ - then you recognise it, appreciate it for what it was, and also consider the costs of holding that perception for the coming years. It will probably drop itself.


Look forward to your thoughts.

With warmest wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Anne71
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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:38 pm

Hi John,
At the centre of this narrative is "me". Take "me" out and the story loses all its juice.

Hmh, I am confused.
For me it was very relieving, to realize, that I have no control of my thoughts.
No control = no responsibility, no shame.

I read on your blog about choice and control. Having a choice ends passivity, but also brings back shame and a me.

The crux is our fusion with the character. Identification.

For me this sounds like calling a bike a car. It woun’t drive any faster.
Hmh, maybe not a perfect metaphor.

I can not quite grasp your philosophy or construct.
Well, i understand, that we use narratives as tools. And... I don’t know what to write. I expected with awakening thinking would only be used for complicated planning-stuff and that otherwise life would magically happen without thinking.
Thinking seems to me always contradictory and that i will never be able to settle down.
You see i am trying to grasp at a how-to or philosophy.

But yes, I'm forever doing things I've never done. I enjoy the challenge, and if it goes belly up, so be it. :)


Cool :-)


It's not really quite as we might perceive it to be.
A small shift here, a tiny shift there.

Oh dear. Sounds like patience is needed. Why not make a list of beliefs, change them and get done with it? :-))

Also, by 'change', I mean we get clear on what we perceive to be the case. We do have to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves, because we are masters of self-deception.

True! I am the master of masters.
How do I know if I am honest? If i go back to direct experience?

My experiences and what i learned are precious to me. I earned them by paying with pain and loss.
There i was telling myself a nice story :-)

Again, we don't perceive it as this great big task. To an extent, its a turn of mood, away from old perceptions (however much they were fought for), to what's true, and to be new.

I thought instead of just changing perceptions and beliefs for ‘better’ beliefs, i could drop them completely.
(Like you wrote on your NLPpost about creating a better person instead of losing it.)
Yes, in the sense of being willing to give yourself a fresh start.
To draw a line, if you will, and say yep, ok, this got me to here, and I deeply appreciate and respect that, but now, it's not helping, and its time to forge a new approach - why? Because I want to enjoy life, its ups and downs, light and dark. Be engaged with life.

Thats lovely!
I am not married - I am engaged with life! Hah!


Yes, spot on. When you come across something that you saw as true like ‘how to be successful/attractive/survive’ - then you recognise it, appreciate it for what it was, and also consider the costs of holding that perception for the coming years. It will probably drop itself.

Droping does not always come easy. Even when considering the costs. Sometimes i would be banging my head a hundred times against a wall and say: “But there was a door once!”
Sounds like Eeyore looking for thistles:”But at this spot always grew thistles!”

Please start a new Pooh story if you like!

Greetings from Anne

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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:55 pm

Hi Anne,

Let's have a gander at this.

For me it was very relieving, to realize, that I have no control of my thoughts.

When you say "I have no control of my thoughts" - what specifically does 'I' refer to?

That is to say, is there an 'I' that has no control of thoughts?

Or is it that, there not being an 'I', means that thoughts are not controlled?

Or that thoughts are not controlled, whether or not there is an 'I'?

Or something else...?

Just share how you see it.

:)

Thank you,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Anne71
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Re: Guiding beyond gate

Postby Anne71 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:20 am

Hi John,

thanks for your questions and taking a step back to kindergarten :-)
I have to walk a bit to have wifi and read and send mails. So it takes a while sometimes until i answer.

When you say "I have no control of my thoughts" - what specifically does 'I' refer to?

There is no entity called Anne, that controls which tought will come next.


That is to say, is there an 'I' that has no control of thoughts?

There might be something outside toughts that controlls them, but awareness or what you might call it, doesn’t know it, because it is outside.
The ‘I’ people usually mean when talking about ‘I’ is a combination of name, memories, habits, perceptions and so on with no center of control (at least i am not aware of a center of control).

Or is it that, there not being an 'I', means that thoughts are not controlled?
Or that thoughts are not controlled, whether or not there is an 'I'?
Or something else...?
Just share how you see it.

As i said, maybe there is s.th. i am not aware of, that controls thoughts, but it is not me/conciousness or Anne (fiction).
Maybe it is circumstances controlling toughts, like
‘this happens
and in combination with memory and perceptions,
summed up under the name ‘Anne’, that thought comes up’.
Or
Maybe a huge puppetteer sits in front of a screen and types thoughts that arise in (my) conciousness.
There is not knowledge of one or the other being true in my conciousness. Its a mystery if there is control of thoughts.
And there is no way to find out for me unless conciousness would be able to duplicate and take a look at it self from outside. I guess.

….

Yesterday evening i tried to make some sense of all the information we had exchanged before.
I mean a sense, where the foundation is square, there are four walls, a roof and a door and some windows that can be opened and closed.


What makes sense for me and what i experienced:

- There is a person or character, formed by a name, a body, memories, habits, emotions and thoughts.
- This is not ‘me’. The body is not my center and i can not control thoughts.
- fixed perceptions, formed by conditioning belong to a person/Anne.
- These perceptions only show a certain part of the reality. (filter)
- Believing in a character enforces habits and perceptions.
- Seeing the person as an illusion, destroys the foundations of habits and perceptions.
- After awakening the beliefs and habits stay until recognized and realized as not true.

???? I am still not sure about the following:

- Perceptions are tools. For me perceptions are judgements and i only need them if i want to have a special outcome. For example: i am hungry - what is edible? I want to travel to london - what is the cheapest or most convenient way? So i guess it is best get into a state of not perceiving until s.th. special needs to be achieved. This way i can be open to the moment and enjoy what is happening without judgement. Because judgment would bring grasping and aversion.
- Writing your own life: i get your step-by-step-approach. This way i can focus on every moment and react/choose. Maybe there is a kind if choice when there is awareness?? Often times life itself is a better author than me/thoughts and offers new ways and surprises i’ d have never imagined.
- Life is not a single-player-game. There are lots of players. Toughts can make a plan and act, but what will happen are the consequences of several different occurences. (-> no failure, no shame)
- The real me (conciousness?) has a personality. Maybe, when all the layers of believes and perceptions and memories are peeled off, there is left effortless living, tainted by the unique fragrance of the personality.

Looking forward to your thoughts.
Anne


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