am i on the right track? or just deluded lol

[flux3000]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Hi, LU will help guide for seeing there is no real, inherent self - meaning LU will assist me to the 'Aha' moment of seeing there is no fixed, permanent, changeless, identity self that is separate from all of reality. That the identity and thought 'I' is just a thought - using language that we have learned from our family / environment etc.

What are you looking for at LU?
I can intellectually and experientially, to a certain degree, understand that there is no fixed / permanent self. When i am walking out with the dog, in the park etc. 'i am' one with everything (until thoughts arise and my awareness fuses with them). However come night-time when i'm (the mind-body in 'my' closest proximity of awareness) is tired, i easily get triggered if my daughter is misbehaving (not meeting my self-imposed expectations) for instance. I understand LU is not counselling or self-improvement, or relationship solution - however my point is - I want to (actually have a burning desire) to match my intellectual understanding with my everyday experience. I guess i have a self-imposed expectation that i should be peaceful, content all the time, or at least when i do get irritated / angry that i quickly calm down. Unfortunately i sometimes just wake up grumpy, or when after i've raised my voice at my kids i feel guilty afterwards.
i understand there is no fixed permanent me, i have harder time seeing there is no 'fixed them either' i guess - and i still obviously have expectations, guilt, and moods that last for 30 mins for instance sometimes longer.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
to see where i am deluding myself. To help me clarify the missing links. To see where i am confused / misguided etc. Ideally to uncover / cultivate / recognize an altered trait not just an altered state?

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Been into Meditation, Energy Healing, spirituality and Tibetan Buddhism for around 20 odd years, on and off. Quite a big resurgence 2-3 years ago. Most interested in Mindfulness, Mahamudra and Dzogchen - also into the idea of compassion, serving others and loving-kindness. So potentially would be interested in guiding others at some point.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Matthew P]

Hi flux3000,

My name is Matthew and I would be happy to be your guide.

In your responses, please be 100% honest and just write what's true for you.
It's helpful to put aside teachings, books, and videos for the time being to be more available and focused on your own experience. That's where we'll look.

A few quick actions before we get going. Please:

- Read the "Read this first" topic (if you haven't already done so), at:
www.liberationunleashed.com/nation/view ... f=4&t=2109
...particularly the three guidelines under "How does it work?" and the disclaimer.

- Watch this video on how to use the forum's "quote" function, which we’ll be using:
www.liberationunleashed.com/nation/view ... ?f=4&t=660

- Let me know:
- When you have read the above.

- If you would you like to be addressed 'flux3000' or something else.

Thank you!... and I look forward to going through this with you :)

Matthew

[flux3000]

Hi Matthew

Nice to meet you, looking forward to this too :)

You can call me Greg, I'm ready :)

Thank you

[Matthew P]

Hi Greg!

Great that you're ready.
Your burning desire is useful. :)

Let's look at your expectations...

...expectation that i should be peaceful, content all the time, or at least when i do get irritated / angry that i quickly calm down."

Do you expect this will happen as a result of seeing no self?

If so, can you just leave this to rest and look with fresh eyes at what is really going on?

I'll assume the answer to the latter question above is “Yes,” and proceed as if it is.
If not, please let me know and we'll do some work to assist you in dropping any expectations.

If the answer is yes, let's move along.

What comes up when I say, “There is no separate entity self in real life at all”?

Matthew

[flux3000]

Hi Matthew,

Let's look at your expectations...

...expectation that i should be peaceful, content all the time, or at least when i do get irritated / angry that i quickly calm down."

Do you expect this will happen as a result of seeing no self?

I guess i have some high expectations of seeing no self, yes

If so, can you just leave this to rest and look with fresh eyes at what is really going on?

I'll assume the answer to the latter question above is “Yes,” and proceed as if it is.
If not, please let me know and we'll do some work to assist you in dropping any expectations.

If the answer is yes, let's move along.

Ok, yes, let's move along

What comes up when I say, “There is no separate entity self in real life at all”?

immediately a logical theoretical answer was about to form ...

but i brought my attention back to this moment and sensations and sensations of breathing...

just sitting

[Matthew P]

Hi Greg,

I guess i have some high expectations of seeing no self, yes

Thanks for being willing to set these aside.
Let's look at other expectations. Please list all your expectations beyond the ones already mentioned - look for hidden expectations - bring it all to the table.

What comes up when I say, “There is no separate entity self in real life at all”?

immediately a logical theoretical answer was about to form ...
but i brought my attention back to this moment and sensations and sensations of breathing...
just sitting

Well done for catching expressing the logical theoretical answer!
And I still want to know what comes up for you when I say, “There is no separate entity self in real life at all.”
What's your honest thought or story about that prospect?

Matthew

[flux3000]

Let's look at other expectations. Please list all your expectations beyond the ones already mentioned - look for hidden expectations - bring it all to the table.

Depends what area of life we are talking about?

(eg. I am more consciously aware of expectations i have placed on other people eg. my daughters behaviour / manners for instance).

Regarding Spirituality - There are quite a few, probably hidden childhood fantasies, from super hero / ninja movies / yoda / Star Wars etc.
Also in recent years some ideas possibly from Tibetan Buddhism / QiGong / Taoism - Yogic powers, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Rainbow Body attainment etc.

I think some of these conscious expectations for Spiritual awakening / realizing Not-Self are starting to fall away though.

However even though I am aware that these are probably just Spiritually Materialistic concepts / goals / attainments i guess there are some remnants still in my psyche (controlling me in some way) and i guess a part of me would like to 'measure up' check 'my overall' body-mind spiritual progress.,

- ie. check myself if i am on the right path / not deluded myself ....but i guess that could be ego too...

i just don't want [my ego / some spiritual teachings] to be fooling myself [myself - the True not-self if there is such a thing - lol]

I guess another belief/ expectation is that life is a school and / or we are consciously evolving beings - and i want to do the best and not waste time / life while here.

I would stand by one other main expectation of Spiritual attainment though - that if i am Spiritually Awakening I would be present / in Presence - self-liberating thoughts / emotions most of the time.

For higher level of stability / presence - this Presence would continue during sleep (then of course into Death process once dying) in the mind stream.

And I still want to know what comes up for you when I say, “There is no separate entity self in real life at all.”
What's your honest thought or story about that prospect?

I think see this quite clearly. Like a tree cannot exist without the Earth, Sun, Rain, Wind etc. likewise there is no solid fixed me (body or mental) that can exist independently of anything.

Leading on from this my understanding is that the only 'True' / 'Independent / Unborn' reality that some Spiritual Teachers say is 'Pure Timeless Awareness'.

I experience perhaps a 'baby' version of this awareness (like a Spark of the Divine / Droplet from the Ocean) - and would like to / expect to be able to experience the Big Daddy at some point.

This is because I wonder / ponder;

i) if this Father Sky / Ocean or Divine Mother / Love awareness covers / pervades all of reality,

or

ii) if my Baby awareness is all there is - and i experience this Awareness only due to my sense consciousness / brain awareness / somatic experience / connected to this body-mind.

Or

iii) if its 'my' awareness connecting with 'your awareness' for instance (co-creating reality like Indra's net). So I guess there is a niggling doubt there which i don't know if can be overcome....

Perhaps here would be another expectation that:

Awakening / Freedom / Realizing Non-self would be conclusive evidence that this 'Pure Awareness' is All Pervading (perhaps some kind of out of body experience / memory of past lives / cosmic perspective to verify this ? :) )

PLUS

a nice warm fuzzy feeling of Love, ecstasy and Oneness thrown in for good measure would be nice, no?

So sprinkled on top - The Expectation that i would be free of doubt
(at some point then for an ongoing indefinite period in time-space)

Thank you :) ./\.

[Matthew P]

Well done. Many expectations on the table!
E.g. from super hero / ninja movies / yoda / Star Wars etc, Tibetan Buddhism / QiGong / Taoism - Yogic powers, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Rainbow Body attainment etc.

a nice warm fuzzy feeling of Love, ecstasy and Oneness

The Expectation that i would be free of doubt
(at some point then for an ongoing indefinite period in time-space)

Ha, why not throw in the expectation of receiving a million bucks too? :)
I jokingly say this to highlight the overblown future thinking of the mind. The desire for something different to what's showing up now.

You're right... these are

just Spiritually Materialistic concepts / goals / attainments

I think some of these conscious expectations for Spiritual awakening / realizing Not-Self are starting to fall away though.

Great. Are you willing to place any remaining expectations on the shelf during this process?

And are you willing to drop or put aside the belief that...

...life is a school and / or we are consciously evolving beings - and i want to do the best and not waste time / life while here.

I would stand by one other main expectation of Spiritual attainment though - that if i am Spiritually Awakening I would be present / in Presence - self-liberating thoughts / emotions most of the time.

Greg, this may be a motivator for you however can you see how holding onto this expectation/hope/belief could act as a block to seeing what's here now? Are you willing to drop it or shelve it?

a part of me would like to 'measure up' check 'my overall' body-mind spiritual progress.,
- ie. check myself if i am on the right path / not deluded myself

Is there actually a 'right' path?
Is there a 'wrong' path?
Or do these exist only in story?

Awakening / Freedom / Realizing Non-self would be conclusive evidence that this 'Pure Awareness' is All Pervading (perhaps some kind of out of body experience / memory of past lives / cosmic perspective to verify this ? :) )

'Awareness' gets spoken about a lot in non dual literature.
The purpose of this enquiry is not to find conclusive evidence that 'Pure Awareness' is All Pervading.
The purpose here is simply to check whether a separate self entity exists in reality or not.
Are you willing to put aside your focus on awareness and concepts about awareness E.g. a 'baby' version, a Big Daddy version/Pure Awareness, during this process?

As you

don't want [my ego / some spiritual teachings] to be fooling myself

...you're in the perfect place. You'll check for what's real here.

[flux3000]

Ha, why not throw in the expectation of receiving a million bucks too? :)
I jokingly say this to highlight the overblown future thinking of the mind. The desire for something different to what's showing up now.

Yes you're right! lol

..Are you willing to place any remaining expectations on the shelf during this process?

Yes.

.And are you willing to drop or put aside the belief that...

...life is a school and / or we are consciously evolving beings - and i want to do the best and not waste time / life while here.

That's a hard one, but ok i will do my best to shelve this belief [for now lol]

I would stand by one other main expectation of Spiritual attainment though - that if i am Spiritually Awakening I would be present / in Presence - self-liberating thoughts / emotions most of the time.

Greg, this may be a motivator for you however can you see how holding onto this expectation/hope/belief could act as a block to seeing what's here now? Are you willing to drop it or shelve it?

Yes i can see that holding onto this belief, and most of the other expectations for that matter, too tightly could act as a block to seeing what is here now. I will do my best to loosen up ;)

However, at the same time, i can see that there is quite possibly a paradox at play moment to moment....
ie. we are all perfect 'as we are' and we do not need anything, ego is not real, there is no separation (from the Ultimate perspective)
but at the same 'time' (from the relative perspective) - things , events, causes, conditions, karma, action(s), reaction(s) do occur and there are real (relatively speaking) consequences that seem to occur..

a part of me would like to 'measure up' check 'my overall' body-mind spiritual progress.,
- ie. check myself if i am on the right path / not deluded myself

Is there actually a 'right' path?
Is there a 'wrong' path?
Or do these exist only in story?

Aha, this may indeed be a useful concept for us to delve into...as it may be a trap for my ego...
However 'my' sophisticated ego mind will answer as follows:

Right is that which is not 'unwholesome'....
Unwholesome is based on fear, greed, envy, pride, aggression, hatred, ignorance etc.

So, 'wrong path', in my understanding, on the conventional level, would be based on the above 'poisons' but especially be veiled in ignorance and mindlessness (lack of consciousness).

I think most people / beings (in this story we call life) would agree that they want peace, health, harmony, living serenely aware in the moment, and not want anger, greed, fighting, bloodshed, war etc.

But yes, i can see that ultimately (outside of the story) there is no Right and Wrong path ('all roads lead to Rome'...at some point at least),
ie. we are already here....the goal is the path...pathless path...

but as mentioned above, on a relative level, from my current understanding, there does seem to be a right and wrong way to do things...
or at least a faster or slower way...

i guess the point (or niggling fear / doubt) for me is...i don't want to be hoodwinked / double crossed by the unhealthy side of ego...

I can understand that the ego is 'ultimately' not real - but on an everyday level the illusionary sense of separate self is most certainly causing havoc!...(as well as creating / contributing / sustaining some positive stuff occasionally too).

unfortunately, it seems that when past traumas (minor) / memories / habitual conditioning seem to come together with some events / conditions in 'external reality' they trigger over-reactions from my ego
- one of the main reasons i am here -
ie. to check if i have indeed realized 'no-self' would i still over-react?

The purpose of this enquiry is not to find conclusive evidence that 'Pure Awareness' is All Pervading.

Ok. It was always going to be a long shot! :)

The purpose here is simply to check whether a separate self entity exists in reality or not.

Ok, i wonder if I already understand this. I can see that a separate self does not exist in ultimate reality, and also there is no separate any-thing / self in conventional reality either.

This understanding (i claim to have) helps and has taken me a long way, but is my understanding deep rooted / habitual - i wonder if it were would i still get so annoyed by little frustrations?

Are you willing to put aside your focus on awareness and concepts about awareness E.g. a 'baby' version, a Big Daddy version/Pure Awareness, during this process?

Yes.

As you

don't want [my ego / some spiritual teachings] to be fooling myself

...you're in the perfect place. You'll check for what's real here.

Ok Great, Thank you for working with me :)

[Matthew P]

However, at the same time, i can see that there is quite possibly a paradox at play moment to moment....
ie. we are all perfect 'as we are' and we do not need anything, ego is not real, there is no separation (from the Ultimate perspective)
but at the same 'time' (from the relative perspective) - things , events, causes, conditions, karma, action(s), reaction(s) do occur and there are real (relatively speaking) consequences that seem to occur..

Here we'll be put aside most of the conceptual/belief elements you mentioned in the paradox and look directly at things, events and actions.

i guess the point (or niggling fear / doubt) for me is...i don't want to be hoodwinked / double crossed by the unhealthy side of ego...

What could happen in your life if you were "hoodwinked / double crossed by the unhealthy side of ego"? I.e. If I was a fly on the wall, what would I see happening?

- one of the main reasons i am here -
ie. to check if i have indeed realized 'no-self' would i still over-react?

Seeing through the illusion of self is simply the dropping of one belief.
All your history, stories, traumas, conditioning etc may still remain. Your relationship to them may loosen somewhat, but they will most likely all still be there.
Knowing this, are you ok to continue?

Ok, i wonder if I already understand this. I can see that a separate self does not exist in ultimate reality, and also there is no separate any-thing / self in conventional reality either.

I can tell from your responses you understand this. Is it an intellectual understanding, or have you had the unequivocal direct experience of seeing no self? If you're not certain you have, then further enquiry is useful.

This understanding (i claim to have) helps and has taken me a long way, but is my understanding deep rooted / habitual - i wonder if it were would i still get so annoyed by little frustrations?

You mean, "Would I stop being a human being?" Probably not. You may get better at noticing the automatic nature of everything and accepting it, then not judge 'your' 'self' so harshly for annoyance at little frustrations happening.

[flux3000]

Here we'll be put aside most of the conceptual/belief elements you mentioned in the paradox and look directly at things, events and actions.

Ok sounds good.

What could happen in your life if you were "hoodwinked / double crossed by the unhealthy side of ego"? I.e. If I was a fly on the wall, what would I see happening?

Wow....great question...
hmmm...
on the one hand i may not even be aware of it...?
on the everyday level i guess i could be running around with a righteous attitude and covertly thinking i am holier than anyone else? leading to many unfulfilling, tense and awkward moments...?

All your history, stories, traumas, conditioning etc may still remain. Your relationship to them may loosen somewhat, but they will most likely all still be there.
Knowing this, are you ok to continue?

ok, sounds reasonable, yes i am ok to continue.

I can tell from your responses you understand this. Is it an intellectual understanding, or have you had the unequivocal direct experience of seeing no self? If you're not certain you have, then further enquiry is useful.

i think i understand intellectually. I can also rest for short periods of time in the gap between thoughts - an open, relaxed but alert awareness - where thoughts may come or go - but i do not necessarily (need to) follow them.
Is this the direct experience of seeing no self?
If so, would it be advisable to abide 'there' (here / now) as much as possible?

I mean even as I type this i am aware of my awareness, sensations in my body, fingertips, thought process, impressions, sounds etc. So is it necessary?

You mean, "Would I stop being a human being?" Probably not. You may get better at noticing the automatic nature of everything and accepting it, then not judge 'your' 'self' so harshly for annoyance at little frustrations happening.

Haha! Thank you for your clarification. Yes i was / am still aiming for being Supra-human!

I do notice the automatic nature of my reactions etc more and more. Many times i do not follow the automatic responses, not always though. Sometimes i just have moods eg. when wake up, or that come over my awareness that i can't seem to get out of...in the worse cases i don't even feel like trying...(as so annoyed)...

So the mood / annoyance / frustration seems to take me over - even though i may have some awareness still there (very slight or none in worse cases). Even right now...(getting hot here) i may know its not good to lash out / swear etc. but somehow the momentum / habit energy pushes me along...

You are right i need to have more self-compassion, but i guess i have a big expectation that i would be a calmer, kinder human being (at least 99%) of the time :)

[Matthew P]

Yes i was / am still aiming for being Supra-human!

If you're serious about the Supra-human objective, this ain't the place you'll get that. You'll still be a human being, just with one less belief. I think you're clear on that... reiterating just in case.

i guess i have a big expectation that i would be a calmer, kinder human being (at least 99%) of the time :)

As we've established, seeing no self will not necessarily lead to this.
All states come and go and are not permanent. Some people have an awakening event and others just shrug — "Is that it?"
It can be very subtle. There is no set way. Everyone's experience is different.
The only way it happens is the right one for you, so calmness/kindness is not necessarily going to happen.
You may rest this to the side for now.
Seeing is pattern recognition, not a change of a state. It’s a change of view.

I can also rest for short periods of time in the gap between thoughts - an open, relaxed but alert awareness - where thoughts may come or go - but i do not necessarily (need to) follow them.
Is this the direct experience of seeing no self?

I mean even as I type this i am aware of my awareness, sensations in my body, fingertips, thought process, impressions, sounds etc. So is it necessary?

This is a temporary resting in being/awareness and noticing what's arising without story. Most mindful folk can do this. It can be the temporary experience of no self, however it's distinct from the direct experience/realization of seeing no self.

If so, would it be advisable to abide 'there' (here / now) as much as possible?

Well, it's nice for temporary relief, so do what you gotta do. But temporary relief is not what we're going after here.
It will, however be useful for the direct pointing experiments you'll undertake later.

on the one hand i may not even be aware of it...?
on the everyday level i guess i could be running around with a righteous attitude and covertly thinking i am holier than anyone else? leading to many unfulfilling, tense and awkward moments...?

If I'm reading this correctly, this is a concern you have if you don't see no self.

What comes up when it's considered that there really is no entity?
Note... I'm not asking what you know about this subject or what you're curious about it. Please look in your direct experience and tell me what thoughts or feelings arise.

[flux3000]

If you're serious about the Supra-human objective, this ain't the place you'll get that. You'll still be a human being, just with one less belief. I think you're clear on that... reiterating just in case.

Ok, understood

All states come and go and are not permanent. Some people have an awakening event and others just shrug — "Is that it?"
It can be very subtle. There is no set way. Everyone's experience is different.
The only way it happens is the right one for you, so calmness/kindness is not necessarily going to happen.
You may rest this to the side for now.
Seeing is pattern recognition, not a change of a state. It’s a change of view.

OK, Thank you for this.

If so, would it be advisable to abide 'there' (here / now) as much as possible?

Well, it's nice for temporary relief, so do what you gotta do. But temporary relief is not what we're going after here.
It will, however be useful for the direct pointing experiments you'll undertake later.

Awesome a part of me is looking forward to these direct pointing experiments you mentioned.
(i have this inner child who wants new things all the time, and probably has a fear of not knowing everything)

on the one hand i may not even be aware of it...?
on the everyday level i guess i could be running around with a righteous attitude and covertly thinking i am holier than anyone else? leading to many unfulfilling, tense and awkward moments...?

If I'm reading this correctly, this is a concern you have if you don't see no self.

This is a concern if I am deluding myself and how that could play out. Finding a balance of being too harsh with myself, too soft with myself and being true to myself and others. I guess if living in no-self there is nobody to have this concern stick to him/her, or at least not to dwell on it?

I guess another thing that came to mind just now, related to this fear of being tricked by myself - is the concern of life balance.

If I could read, study, reflect, meditate, contemplate, assist others on the path etc. all day - and somehow still make a living, support my family, look after kids etc. I would.

It's not so much that i feel i am still seeking for something, it is more that i feel i have found 'something' / a view / way of looking as you say (parts of me have dropped away / or seeing some light through the cracks) - and want to confirm this / check with others - as well as share it if it is the real deal.

So I am learning as many different ways (intellectually and experientially) to be able to know it thoroughly / inside out - in order to explain / educate / teach / share / demonstrate and embody this in ways that everyday ppl can understand / resonate / entrain to. This seems like 'my' passion / yearning - and is taking up an awful lot of free time which i don't really have much of (due to work & family commitments etc).

Even writing this forum post i 'should' be doing some worldly work while i can.

Hence why I am here - to check myself - am I on the right path, have i indeed found something, is it the real deal, is it my passion, should i spend so much 'worldly time on it -
or ...
am i just addicted to bypassing reality and escaping into books / philosophy / contentment / 'bumming around' (as society may view it) etc.

This isn't even so much a doubt i have, more a pressure from Society i feel - expectations i perceive (true or not) coming from family, those around and society as a whole.

So i guess i want to check is Society right or me...however having a family and a job means i am committed either way.

What comes up when it's considered that there really is no entity?
Note... I'm not asking what you know about this subject or what you're curious about it. Please look in your direct experience and tell me what thoughts or feelings arise.

Awesome...

When i say this to myself 'that there really is no entity' a few things come up
(some at different times):

• Slight Shock

• Mild Subtle Fear in pit of stomach

• Stand still - looking at self - what am I then?

• well who's sitting here then?

• so what?

• ok, so what's next if there is no entity?

• i know that already? [lol]

Wow i love my ego!!

also -

• just sitting, no-thing coming up, just peace, awareness

[flux3000]

Following on from:

What could happen in your life if you were "hoodwinked / double crossed by the unhealthy side of ego"? I.e. If I was a fly on the wall, what would I see happening?

I guess there is also the idea of being duped -

the idea that i am sitting meditating with a smile on my face, while everything is falling apart around me

or like a saying i heard - 'its raining poo's but i'm saying they're pine cones'

or for instance volunteering for someone / a greater cause but they are laughing all the way to the bank and not quite of pure intention...

[Matthew P]

This is a concern if I am deluding myself and how that could play out. Finding a balance of being too harsh with myself, too soft with myself and being true to myself and others.

Could you be with the fact you may be deluding your self?
Not judge it, just see it as a starting point, something to be looked at.

I guess if living in no-self there is nobody to have this concern stick to him/her, or at least not to dwell on it?

That's been true in my experience.

It's not so much that i feel i am still seeking for something, it is more that i feel i have found 'something' / a view / way of looking as you say (parts of me have dropped away / or seeing some light through the cracks) - and want to confirm this / check with others - as well as share it if it is the real deal.

Great. You've got hold of a thread, here we'll keep pulling at it and you'll see it unravel.

the concern of life balance.

I get it. Fortunately life happens moment by moment so you can cross these bridges when/if you come to them.

So i guess i want to check is Society right or me...however having a family and a job means i am committed either way.

Is it possible no one is right?
This process will be easier if you take some pressure off your self in this area. Use it to fuel the burning desire to experience truth, but don't let it cloud your view. E.g. with hope or expectation.

When i say this to myself 'that there really is no entity' a few things come up
(some at different times):
Slight Shock
Mild Subtle Fear in pit of stomach

Fear itself is not to be feared. It's a mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something from being found out.
Please read this article by Ilona Ciunaite, co-founder of Liberation Unleashed...
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.id/201 ... n.html?m=1

Look at fear and just let it be here.
Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom.
It's fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. Thank it.
Then look what is behind fear.
What is there that feels threatened?