Hello

[Aris53]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I can see how mind, which I seem to be attached to, works, and that there's not really nobody to rely on.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for relief on fear based feelings and even have some concrete expectations about getting my life better, but I know all this doesn't really mean anything at this point. I can see the games ”I” is playing and wish to reduce that at least.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To get clearer understanding of what is happening, what looking and the "I" are about. It probably helps me to be more honest compared to studying this just by myself. I don't know what else to say right now, except to make the minimum of 200 characters in this field.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
It comes down to "self knowledge", to see how and why I function the way I do. But there's also wanting for something better, mostly undefined hopes how life should be etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[Jadzia]

Hi Aris,

My name is Jadzia. Nice to meet you at LU.

I guess you already read the guidelines and disclaimer and had a look how quoting works?
If not, please do so.
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

We work with direct looking. Only that is considered real which can be experienced directly.
So always answer from your actual experience only, not from what you have read, heard, learned or known so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly at the moment with your senses:
smelling, tasting, hearing (sound), physical sensation, seeing (colour/image) and appearing thoughts.

For the time of our investigation it would be good to put aside all spiritual resources like books, teachings, philosophy ect. It is helpful for the time of the investigation to drop everything learned and take a fresh look.

Let’s try to post daily to keep up the momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know, I’ll do the same.

Would you tell me why you answered with a 8 to how willing you are to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

You already mentioned several expectations, let’s see if there are more and then have a look at them.
Please take some time and answer with 100% honesty.
How will life change?
What about you, will you change?
What will be different?
What would you like to gain?
Would there be something you wouldn’t want to loose or might miss?

Love,
Jadzia

[Aris53]

Hello Jadzia, thank you for taking my case. First I want to note that english is not my native language, so it can be a little clumsy at times.

why you answered with a 8 to how willing you are to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

I though it would be pretty good rating, considering - despite clear moments and intellectual understanding - that there's resistance, fearful and doubtfull thoughts and feelings about this process.

Next questions made my mind blank at first. Seemed like I have to use imagination to answer them. So I don't know how honest they are, but I try.

How will life change?

Living gets simpler, easier and clearer.

What about you, will you change?

I will be happier, more creative, willing and open to express myself, more energetic and straightforward...I can't really think anything good that isn't possible when I'm liberated. :)

What will be different?

Since I'm lonely and unemployd, I will hopefully draw some friends or even beloved to me, and also get activities, doings or work worthwhile.

What would you like to gain?

A: In addition to previous answers, I would like to gain acceptance, love and respect.

I will send you another mail about the last question later this evening.

Aris

[Jadzia]

Dear Aris,

Your English is wonderful to read! English isn't my first language either so we both can relax. ;-)

I thought it would be pretty good rating, considering - despite clear moments and intellectual understanding - that there's resistance, fearful and doubtfull thoughts and feelings about this process.

I see. Don’t worry, resistance, which can show as fear and doubt, are pretty normal in the beginning or even later on in this kind of investigation. We can work with it. Anyway, we do this calmly step by step.

I wait till the last question is answered and then we get going.

Love,
Jadzia

[Aris53]

Jadzia
Thank you for encouraging me – I add that to my wants list. :)

Would there be something you wouldn’t want to loose or might miss?

Somehow this question lightens the logic of my expectations. I would like to have, let's say acceptance, but at the same time I try to get it by hanging on the role I've learned in the past – and that's obviously a big part of what I'm afraid to loose.
So it turns upside down: I don't want to loose the obstacles that are in the way of what I truly desire.

Aris

[Jadzia]

Hi Aris,

I hope you are not disappointed, recognizing this personal self for what it is – an illusion – doesn’t change much at the first moment. It might start an unraveling process. With the fresh look at what is real or not beliefs, identifications and so on will drop with the time. This can be refreshing but it also can be hard work.
The recognition of the illusion is a first step to full liberation.
Can it happen that your life changes? Yes or no, no one can say how this will work out for each one of us. First life will simply go on, your overview will be different. This can be helpful.
Can it be that you change? Probably. But how you’d change, again no one can say – you’ll only find out for yourself.
Will you loose your character or personality? Not likely. There won’t be much to loose, you might just see yourself and life in a different light.
Is this still interesting and worthwhile? Oh, yes. But again this is something to find out for yourself.

How do you feel now?

Love
Jadzia

[Aris53]

Thanks Jadzia,
I'm not too surprised of what my conditioning expresses and represents anymore, and don't judge it as much. I've been on ”spiritual journey” getting to know myself and on the other hand trying to escape from it for about 25 years, just to find this what we are doing now – seeing the identification for what it is, not trying to change it. Things will keep on coming to experience and to look at, but right now I feel good, calm behind anxiety, and grateful.

Aris

[Jadzia]

Things will keep on coming to experience and to look at, but right now I feel good, calm behind anxiety, and grateful.

This is a good position to start from.

Lets go:
It’s good to practice looking at your present experience only, rather than looking to the content of thought (stories).

Practice the following exercise as much as you can, whenever you remember.

If you remove all thought labels from experience, the only possible remaining raw sensory experience left are colour/image, smell, sensation, taste, sound and thought.
Rather than identifying the difference between a tree and a car, which are different labels only thought knows, all that is seen is simply labelled as ‘colour’.

For example, as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree = colour.
Smelling coffee = smell.
Feeling the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste.
Hearing a car drive by = sound.
Thinking about work = thought. (Thoughts can either be ‘mental words’ or ‘mental images’)

Just break down all experiences into these categories throughout the day, keep it as simple as it is and let me know how you go.

Love
Jadzia

[Aris53]

Hi Jadzia,

This morning, before receiving your mail, I was sitting on the floor after little gymnastics, and suddenly felt like a little child, just wondering without thinking. That was a brief moment but suits for this exercise, which however ”didn't go very well” on my opinion (a judging thought).

I know this exercise from material I've read here in LU and Facebook, and done similar stuff in the past. Labelling may have lessen in some way, but now I also see better how unconscious, automated and subtle it is – which has left me rather confused at the moment. As if I don't know if I label or not, or that I'm just thinking too much and make things complicated. The last sentence is obviously true :) .

Earlier today I felt more peaceful, clearer 'in the head', and there was a sense that everything is right the way it is and unfolds, and that without labelling everything is more connected. Later on some bodily pains/feelings and associated thoughts kicked in to blur seeing.

[Jadzia]

Aris, the exercise went well, I am only sorry that it led to confusion.
Lets have a look.

This exercise is for understanding what raw experience is. This is about Direct Looking, just plain looking at that what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the actual experience (AE).
It is this direct looking which is needed to distinguish between what is real and what is fantasy.

You realized that, thinking and with it labeling (which is thinking too), runs pretty much automatically the whole time. Sometimes it is more central sometimes more peripheral, rather unnoticed – like when you felt like a child.
And that thoughts can be labeled, for example as a 'judging' one.

Thinking just happens and is part of This.
There is nothing wrong with thinking and we don’t aim towards no thinking.
It is this what you hope for? To be free of thoughts?

Labelling happens and why not? It is helpful when communicating with others, when reading ect. It is language we use to share our experiences. It would sound pretty daft if we would talk to others like: colour, feeling, sound, smell after a visit to a concert. No one would understand what we talk about.

….was a sense that everything is right the way it is and unfolds, and that without labelling everything is more connected.

Is there ever a more or less connected?
Can thinking disconnect? Can thoughts DO anything at all?
Or is this “without labelling everything is more connected” a thought? A thought pointing to another thought?


Love,
Jadzia

[Aris53]

Hi Yadzia

Aris, the exercise went well, I am only sorry that it led to confusion.

That's all right.

It is this what you hope for? To be free of thoughts?

No, I see that thoughts appear, like labeling, and it can be useful or not. I can't control them, but I might take action based on them, or not.

Is there ever a more or less connected?

No, if there is connection, there is connection, and that's it.

Aris

[Jadzia]

No, I see that thoughts appear, like labeling, and it can be useful or not. I can't control them, but I might take action based on them, or not.

Right thoughts appear without you doing anything and they can’t be controlled.
Or can you predict your next thought?
Or can you possibly prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Can an ‘I’ take actions based on thoughts?
Where do you find the ‘I’ doing this?

Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?
Is there ever a more or less connected?
No, if there is connection, there is connection, and that's it.

Let me rephrase my question. Can there be anything but connection?
Can there be anything separate, disconnected?
What gives the idea that there might or might not be a connection?

Love,
Jadzia

[Aris53]

Right thoughts appear without you doing anything and they can’t be controlled.
Or can you predict your next thought?
Or can you possibly prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

No, I can't.

Can an ‘I’ take actions based on thoughts?
Where do you find the ‘I’ doing this?

I haven't quite grasped ”the I” part yet, but thoughts seem to lead to action many times. Anyway, thoughts are rising and action taking place.

Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

I can't find an inherent self. The one I'm identified with consists of (past) thoughts and feelings. Then there's ”my body”, but that would require a self to own it, wouldn't it?

Can there be anything but connection?
Can there be anything separate, disconnected?
What gives the idea that there might or might not be a connection?

Everything in consciousness or in direct experience is in fact connected, otherwise it couldn't appear. So, there's no separation really, only thoughts of separation.

[Jadzia]

Good.

I haven't quite grasped ”the I” part yet, but thoughts seem to lead to action many times.

Do thoughts lead to action?
Can thoughts do anything?
Have a close look when you do something. Does the thought ‘claiming’ to have led to action come before, during or after the action?
Look again and again over the next days until you've seen.

Then there's ”my body”, but that would require a self to own it, wouldn't it?

It is Sunday so you get an another exercise. ;-)
Here is a beautiful exercise which will answer your question.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie, like a couch or even a bed.
Take your shoes off. Fully relax for a few minutes - take calming breaths.
For 30 to 60 seconds each, do these exercises:
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your right foot. Again, feel it. Flex it.
Then bring your awareness to your left hand. Open and close it to feel it better.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your right hand.
Hold your right arm out straight away from you, then point your index finger back toward your body.
Point to where "Aris-Self" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Aris-Self".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "Aris-Self" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find?
Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Aris-Self"? (If any.)
What about “my body?”

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of Direct Experience. Remember - Direct Experience, or DE, is the raw sensation (touch, sight, smell, taste, hear), not the thoughts that quickly follow to label those sensations.

Love
Jadzia

[Aris53]

Were you able to find and feel "Aris-Self" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

When I did the exercise my finger pointed to belly in the end, I don't know why. There was slight tension on surface, and merely emptiness underneath, so not much was found.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Aris-Self"? (If any.)

There was warmness, tingling, tension and pain.

What about “my body"?

There's nobody in charge there. All is just happening.

Can thoughts do anything?

Thoughts can't do, sense, know etc., anything.

Do thoughts lead to action?

This is all not clear yet, but so far I've noticed that everyday doings and routines happen without a need for any specific thoughts to start with. There's just ”an impulse” to act and everything gets done automatically according to how it's been learned. The same applies when there appears to be a need for immediate action. If there are thoughts and plans about doing things, they don't necessarily lead to action.

Does the thought ‘claiming’ to have led to action come before, during or after the action?

It's still difficult to distinguish the order of thought and impulse, to see which comes first. Sometimes thought comes during the action, sometimes not until after, if ever. I can have a thought to do something right away, but is it the thought that makes me move, I still have to look.