Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

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Lee0101
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Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:42 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no individual or separate "I", "me", or "mine" doing anything. After practicing self-inquiry for a few years in addition to recently practicing Deep Looking, there are no doubts about the stillness and silence that is the knowing presence, but there is still conditioning and contraction that perpetuates a "me" if that makes sense.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance in looking at the conditioning of an "I" or "me", and clearing it out. Doing the work myself, but having friends to help with places where I get stuck or to honestly show me blind spots where I am not seeing something or protecting.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honesty and clarity are what I expect from myself. Otherwise, I am open to let whatever unfolds just happen. From what I have seen from Ilona and Elena, they do not give any room for distraction or protecting a sense of a separate "me" or "I". I expect that is the standard to which the Guides operate as well.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing Self-Inquiry per Ramana Maharshi's teachings for the past five years. I am active with a satsang group. Inquiry has been the most effective means for the starting of the disentanglement from "I" and "self", but have not cleared out the conditioning. Recently, I have been practicing Deep Looking by myself. Deep Looking seems to have really sped up the process. It has helped with resistance and clinging to "me" by reducing physical knots in the body. I am not sure exactly what it is doing, but it works. I really appreciate the direct, no-nonsense approach of LU.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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forgetmenot
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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:20 am

Hi Lee,

My name is Kay and I am happy to guide you. You write that you have seen through the illusion of the 'separate' self and are looking for assistance with clearing conditioning. Can you tell me what conditioning you are referring to.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lee0101
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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:26 am

HI Kay,

Thank you for the reply. That is a great question, and it is taking some effort to come up with a reply. Questions seem to stop assumptions in their tracks. The seeing through the separate self has been intermittent or intellectual. The conditioning is the protection of a 'me'. When practicing Deep Looking this week by myself, I asked the question "What are you protecting?", and the answer "me" came up many times. Thank you for the offer to guide.

Lee

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:35 am

Hey Lee,

Thanks for your response! So, to me it is about seeing what mechanisms are in play that SEEM to keep the 'me' in play and this is what this exploration is about. Just some housekeeping first.

1. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, here is the link...could you please read it now and confirm that you have read it.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

2. Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

3. Post as often as possible and if you are unable to post for a few days, please write a quick post letting me know.
There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

5. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

6. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration; could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:56 am

I will work on the questions, and post at a later time today if possible. It would be good to ponder these questions a bit.

Thank you,

Lee

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:50 am

How will life change?
I am not sure. Possibly more consistenly enjoyable if I stop trying to control life and protect something.
How will you change?
I assume more patient, honest and open if I can see clearly that there is no 'me'. I think that I have not been honest for a long time because I have been protecting a seeming 'me'. Protecting started at childhood, and has carried on as an adult. I have been very good a being deceptive and telling myself and people what they want to hear. There have been glimpses of peace, but I have not seen anything clearly like I stated in my initial post. I would not be asking for help if I had "seen clearly". Frankly it is BS, and I want to be free of dishonesty with people and myself - living free.
What will be different?
Hopefully, I will stop resisting what is true and happening in the moment.
What is missing?
Being fully open and honest. I don't know what it would be like to live that way, it seems like freedom.

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:45 am

Hey Lee,

Can you please confirm that you read the disclaimer and thank you for learning to use the quote function.


When you read my responses I want you to notice what emotions and thoughts arise for you ie anger, fear, resistance, calm etc and to let me know. Expectations are nothing more than an idea (thought) – a mental concept. A meaning is given to both the expectation and the current experience which are then compared and labelled as “liberation” or “not liberation” because of how it is being perceived, and for the desire for liberation to look the way we want it to look/feel. Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. There is nothing to be done with expectations, other than to become aware of them.
How will life change?
I am not sure. Possibly more consistenly enjoyable if I stop trying to control life and protect something.
There is no one/no thing that has ever been controlling life. Life is simply lifing. There would have to be a separate self in order for something to be protected by something else. There has NEVER been a separate self. There was not one yesterday, there is not one reading this now and there won’t be one tomorrow.
How will you change?
I assume more patient, honest and open if I can see clearly that there is no 'me'. I think that I have not been honest for a long time because I have been protecting a seeming 'me'. Protecting started at childhood, and has carried on as an adult. I have been very good a being deceptive and telling myself and people what they want to hear. There have been glimpses of peace, but I have not seen anything clearly like I stated in my initial post. I would not be asking for help if I had "seen clearly". Frankly it is BS, and I want to be free of dishonesty with people and myself - living free.

An assumption is simply an uninvestigated thought/belief. There is no ‘you’ who is a separate independent entity that is saying, doing, thinking or feeling. Thoughts are simply thoughts that arise and subside that either point to actual experience or point to thoughts and thoughts. Thoughts are authored and owned by no one.

This exploration is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness - it is not about happiness, nor is it about freedom from emotions and intense feelings. This exploration is about seeing that what you thought you were…isn’t, and that although seeming emotions and intense feelings appear, they are happening to no one.
What will be different?
Hopefully, I will stop resisting what is true and happening in the moment.
Resistance is impossible, how can what already is be resisted and be resisted by what exactly? It is impossible to change what is already appearing! It is only an appearing thought that says “I am resisting xyz". Thoughts are actual experience (AE) and either point to actual experience or to thought stories ie fantasy. Actual experience is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:53 am

Hi Kay,

Yes, I read the disclaimer.
Expectations are nothing more than an idea (thought) – a mental concept. A meaning is given to both the expectation and the current experience which are then compared and labelled as “liberation” or “not liberation” because of how it is being perceived, and for the desire for liberation to look the way we want it to look/feel. Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. There is nothing to be done with expectations, other than to become aware of them.
I read all of your responses a few times to let it set in. At first when reading this response, the thought: "You're trying too hard, give up." arose. Then a little resistance. Then gratitude for pointing out particularly this: "Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. There is nothing to be done with expectations, other than to become aware of them." Wow, expectation were going unnoticed and starting a chain of thoughts.
There is no one/no thing that has ever been controlling life. Life is simply lifing. There would have to be a separate self in order for something to be protected by something else. There has NEVER been a separate self. There was not one yesterday, there is not one reading this now and there won’t be one tomorrow.
When I first read this one, the thought: "I just don't believe it." arose. Then resistance. After about the third time I read this, I was howling, bent over laughing! I am now while I'm typing. That is possibly from a release or relief in reading that.
An assumption is simply an uninvestigated thought/belief. There is no ‘you’ who is a separate independent entity that is saying, doing, thinking or feeling. Thoughts are simply thoughts that arise and subside that either point to actual experience or point to thoughts and thoughts. Thoughts are authored and owned by no one.

This exploration is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness - it is not about happiness, nor is it about freedom from emotions and intense feelings. This exploration is about seeing that what you thought you were…isn’t, and that although seeming emotions and intense feelings appear, they are happening to no one.
"An assumption is simply an uninvestigated thought/belief." It interesting that it took a few times reading these responses to register everything in them. Gratitude arose for pointing out that assumptions are uninvestigated thoughts and beliefs. Passes under the radar without being noticed as thought.
Resistance is impossible, how can what already is be resisted and be resisted by what exactly? It is impossible to change what is already appearing! It is only an appearing thought that says “I am resisting xyz". Thoughts are actual experience (AE) and either point to actual experience or to thought stories ie fantasy. Actual experience is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience.
Again, gratitude for pointing out that thoughts are experience, but the labels and content within are not experiences. Just labels. I have never read that or been told that. What a bomb. After reading all of these a few time, I laughed and laughed. Thoughts built upon thoughts about thoughts... As I'm typing this, a stunned and bewildered feeling is going on. Not in a bad way, but light. These responses felt like strong, needed medicine.

Thank you very much!

Lee

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:48 am

Hey Lee,

Great to hear that laughter arose as the response to answers received and that you took your time and read them a few times to let them sink in. Expectations, without a doubt, will arise somewhere a long the line...but that is okay...they will be dug up and noticed!

Okay, so the exploration is about me pointing and you LOOKING. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known, and what is already known is sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self. LOOKING is like looking for your keys when you have lost them. You look high and low....searching everywhere for them.

So to learn how to look is to become aware of actual experience (AE) and becoming aware (observing) the thoughts that appear and overlay the raw experience with concepts.

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Throughout our exploration, what is highlighted in blue text is what I would like you to answer please. Don't forget to use the quote function.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:04 pm

Hi Kay,

Using the clunky medium of words,I must share with you my experience after the previous post with your responses. When I woke up yesterday, it felt like something had changed but stayed the same. Everything was very clear and absolutely beautiful. The normal, everyday things looked so bright. When thoughts came up, they were not seen as 'mine' or 'my' thoughts. Only when we put attention on them do they take us as far as we want to follow. There was just a complete sense of wellbeing and clarity. Very interesting.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
'Apple' seems to be a label for the multiple experiences in that package. Color, sweet, red, grainy texture. These are only thoughts. Without thoughts and labels, there is nothing to say.
However, is an apple actually known?
No, 'apple' is not known. Only thoughts and labels for the purpose of communication.

Thank you for your willingness to help and caring.

Lee

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:43 am

Hello Lee,
Using the clunky medium of words,I must share with you my experience after the previous post with your responses. When I woke up yesterday, it felt like something had changed but stayed the same. Everything was very clear and absolutely beautiful. The normal, everyday things looked so bright. When thoughts came up, they were not seen as 'mine' or 'my' thoughts. Only when we put attention on them do they take us as far as we want to follow. There was just a complete sense of wellbeing and clarity. Very interesting.
Lovely! Thank you for sharing this with me! Clarity will come and go, or so says thought…but it was really good to read that you saw that thoughts are not yours, there is no ‘you’ to author or own thoughts and the thought “these are my thoughts” is just a thought itself.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
'Apple' seems to be a label for the multiple experiences in that package. Color, sweet, red, grainy texture. These are only thoughts. Without thoughts and labels, there is nothing to say.
YES! Every 'thing' simply IS.
However, is an apple actually known?
No, 'apple' is not known. Only thoughts and labels for the purpose of communication.
Thoughts are what give life to characters in books and fairytales and it is thoughts that give life to the idea that there is a you who is a separate independent entity called Lee who is living and controlling life.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:33 pm

HI Kay! I wanted to write these experiences down before they slipped away. This may not be how you asked how to put it down, but there is a lot going on. I'm going to just write and let it flow out.
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
The past couple of nights it has been difficult to sleep or I am aware of being aware of the extremely fast data streams (thoughts or dreams. no particular name) seemingly going by like a train. It is like putting my face two inches from a subway moving at top speed but not reaching or touching it. There is absolutely no reaching out to this data stream as mine, just impersonal looking. The data stream was like a movie, but being fast forwarded at the highest speed. It was like a system purging itself or an unwinding.

During this process, I'm not sure if the body rested or slept, I (awareness) was just aware of the data stream. All of this was like looking at a shirt hanging in the closet or at something objectively. There was absolutely no personal 'my' dreams or irritation that 'I' couldn't sleep. I NEVER SLEEP! Grabbing onto a 'my thoughts' seemed like I would have to put on identification with Lee like a coat or shirt and call it me! A separate self seems so unnatural now. Normally, I would be irritated due to identification and not sleeping.

Over the past few day the process of breaking down daily activities has been going on by itself and picking up momentum. Eating, walking, going to the bathroom. Everything! It all seems so impersonal without the cloak and heaviness of 'I', 'me', and 'mine'. Those are just labels with no true meaning at all. All labels that 'seemed' to mean something are being unpackaged and flattened like boxes with no content until there is nothing left. This is such a freeing feeling. So humorous!

It seems like it would be very easy to talk about 'Lee' in the third person because 'Lee' is only an experience that will live as long as it was supposed to live! All labels and words that we use have no true meaning.

All for now.

Love,

Lee

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:28 pm

Hey Lee,

There seems to be a lot happening for you at the moment!
It seems like it would be very easy to talk about 'Lee' in the third person because 'Lee' is only an experience that will live as long as it was supposed to live! All labels and words that we use have no true meaning.
It is great that you are seeing thoughts as just a continual flow of 'data' and that nothing is personal as there is no thing to to take it personally, or that it is happening to!

There are many place that the so called 'separate self' can hide, so we will be looking in every nook and cranny to see if this is so. I would like for you to do the AE exercise as it is outlined. Just breaking down daily activities such as breakfast, washing up, walking, showering and even at work in the different categories or AE - sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation and colour. Just provide me with some examples please.

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lee0101
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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:24 pm

Hi Kay,

I will definitely do as you asked, what I wrote this morning just needed to come out. Yes, let’s investigate until there is nothing left.

Lee

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Re: Breaking the Addiction to a Separate Self

Postby Lee0101 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Kay,
There are many place that the so called 'separate self' can hide, so we will be looking in every nook and cranny to see if this is so.
The breaking down of tasks into AE, is a powerful exercise. While noting some daily tasks, I noticed how habits of 'I' am doing or seeing this can creep in. I also, noticed some thoughts of doubt and a yearning to identify as a 'me' came up. I just watched and didn't touch it. What a relief to be able to see these thoughts as if from a distance, but not go there. These seem like habitual patterns that will pop up to see if we are watching. At this point,being alert to the possibility of re-identification is important.
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
Here are some broken down daily tasks:

Sitting in chair, simply = Pressure
Writing, simply = Movement
Standing, simply = Pressure
Shirt on the body, simply = Sensation
Drinking coffee, simply = Movement
Thought about moving computer, simply = Thought
Feeling kitchen counter, simply = Sensation
Hearing stomach growling, simply = Sound
Head turning, simply = Movement
Typing, simply = Movement

Thank you,

Lee


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