Freedom of reality

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:17 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
With Realisation of No Self I understand direct experience of seeing that Phenomenas of senses and Mind are just happening on their own, without anyone who is the experiencer,and by mistake are regarded as me and mine.

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation from seeing things the wrong way, identification with experienced Phenomenas as me and mine and realisation of unclouded peace of Freedom, so I could be a part of this movement and help others to do the same.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help to see what is obvious, and have been experienced by all those who have crossed the gate.
Help to see where I have been stucked in Illusion of self.
As English is not my native tongue (even if Im quite good with it), I would prefer a guide who is not a a native English speaker, or could have ability of explaining things efficiently in simple language.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Have done yogic practices and meditation for more than a decade. Have meditated in theravada monastery for 1,5years, many Goenka's courses (with realisation that observation of impermanence of sensations is not enough) , currently drawn to technique of Awareness of Awareness as presented by Alan Wallace.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Canfora » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:46 pm

Hi Avuso, welcome to the LU forum.

I'm not a native English speaker and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
What's your mother tongue? Mine is Portuguese.

Thank you for your introduction. Did you read some of the conversations here in this forum? Does the "direct path" - finding your own answers by looking at your immediate experience - resonate with you?

Looking forward to your reply,
Canfora

User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:37 pm

Hi Canfora!

Thanks for your reply! I would like to start the process bit later (let's say 18th of April, if it's fine with you) cause I will be on travel after few days, and prefer to give my full focus to this thing.. Let me know does it suit you!

My mother tongue is Latvian.
I have read the LU book from Amazon, and I guess guidances written there were enough to grasp the idea of process. So I didn't want to get overloaded by too much theory, and ideas how the process should happen,but rather to see how it will unfold for me.
"Direct path" resonates totally, i am ready for it.

Let me know, if we can delay the start a bit..

Warmly,
Avuso

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Canfora » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:07 pm

Hi again Avuso,
My mother tongue is Latvian.
I have read the LU book from Amazon, and I guess guidances written there were enough to grasp the idea of process. So I didn't want to get overloaded by too much theory, and ideas how the process should happen,but rather to see how it will unfold for me.
"Direct path" resonates totally, i am ready for it.
Wonderful :)
I would like to start the process bit later (let's say 18th of April, if it's fine with you) cause I will be on travel after few days, and prefer to give my full focus to this thing.. Let me know does it suit you!
That's okay. Post when you are ready to start and I will reply.

I whish you a save travel!

Take care,
C

User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:59 am

Hey, Canfora!

I'm ready to start today! How about you?

A.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Canfora » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:28 am

Hi Avuso, welcome back!

Maybe we can start with this question?: what do you think the I - what you think you are when you think about "me" - is?
Maybe this will help - if I tell you to point to you, to where would you point?
If you do this, don't think about pointing, use a finger and share where you have pointed at.
What seems to be the separate self?

Take care,
C

User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am

Hi!
Really glad we are starting, Canfora!

If I really pay attention to it, the habitual idea - "me" , the notion of "I" is a compilation of different thoughts - ideas, memories, beliefs etc and sensory experience which is identified as me and mine.

If I have to point to this "me" , I would touch the middle of chest. There seems to be kind of core of this "Me" experience. But I understand that it is also a sensory and mental perception.

Separate self seems to be as well collection of different thoughts. The fact that I can experience only sense perception in this body not of others is also making this "Me" separate, "real".

Best wishes,
A.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Canfora » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:56 pm

Hi again Avuso,
If I really pay attention to it, the habitual idea - "me" , the notion of "I" is a compilation of different thoughts - ideas, memories, beliefs etc and sensory experience which is identified as me and mine.

If I have to point to this "me" , I would touch the middle of chest. There seems to be kind of core of this "Me" experience. But I understand that it is also a sensory and mental perception.

Separate self seems to be as well collection of different thoughts. The fact that I can experience only sense perception in this body not of others is also making this "Me" separate, "real".
Well done. You have looked for the "me" and you didn't find it, it seems. So, why do you believe there is a me?

Take care,
C

User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:39 am

The idea of "I" seems to be real, because:
Sometimes I forget to be aware of how the things are and just observe, seems that there is a need for uninterrupted effort of equanimous observation to be really free. When times are not smooth and peaceful I tend sometimes to habitually identify, impulsively react with stronger emotions, beliefs, indulging in some compulsive behaviour, following ideas to satisfy desires,be sensitive to criticism etc.

There is also a sense of doer, who wants and prefers his life to go in certain way and not the other.

And I already mentioned, the sensory perception, that is limited to the senses and mind of this body, makes the belief of separate "I" stronger.

A.


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Canfora » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:14 am

Hi Avuso,
Sometimes I forget to be aware of how the things are and just observe, seems that there is a need for uninterrupted effort of equanimous observation to be really free.
Free from what? Do you believe you need to be in a constant state of awareness and observation of how things are? What for? Does that mean that abilities like imagining stuff, getting lost in daydreams, planning, etc aren't okay?
When times are not smooth and peaceful I tend sometimes to habitually identify, impulsively react with stronger emotions, beliefs, indulging in some compulsive behaviour, following ideas to satisfy desires,be sensitive to criticism etc.
Of course you do. That's what I do sometimes also. That's called being human. Notice that if it is true that a separate self is illusory then all that stuff is happening without a real self among all that is happening.
There is also a sense of doer, who wants and prefers his life to go in certain way and not the other.
Yes, sure. And how about a real doer behind the sense of a doer? Can such a thing be found? Move a hand. See what is happening -- use the eyes, use the senses. What do you see? Can you see a you making the hand move? Or the hand is just moving?
And I already mentioned, the sensory perception, that is limited to the senses and mind of this body, makes the belief of separate "I" stronger.
Yes, yes. Does that mean there is a little you inside the body?

I hope I'm not going too fast!

Take care,
C

User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:55 pm

Thanks Canfora!

Everything is fine, I like to go straight to the core! :)

I understand that it is natural for different mental and bodily phenomenas to take place without any real self behind them, I understand that the issue is in identification and clinging.. but who is the one, who is clinging to them, preferring one thing over another? How to stop this process of automatic clinging?

If I observe these phenomenas, then I manage to be free of clinging to some level, if not, old tendencies take place, because of clinging to experience I run after desire, become jealous, I react to mosquito bite instead of just neutrally being aware of pleasant or unpleasant sensation, thought arising etc.. Isn't the liberation to be free from that too? only because of ego, the sense of "I" the clinging is taking place..

liberated masters like Ramana and others were equanimous and fully free from identification with the body even in life threatening, painful diseases, what to talk about a mosquito bite..

Hand is moving, but there seems to be someone who is a initiator and controller of movement of the hand. It's different from automatic jerking of limb of its own.. Of course I understand you will ask me to find where is that controller..

Yes, it's true, limitations of sensory perception to this body only could be just a part of our conditioning.


A.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Canfora » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:07 pm

Hi Avuso,
Everything is fine, I like to go straight to the core! :)
Good! :)
I understand that it is natural for different mental and bodily phenomenas to take place without any real self behind them, I understand that the issue is in identification and clinging.. but who is the one, who is clinging to them, preferring one thing over another? How to stop this process of automatic clinging?
Those are thoughts about this issue. Subjective thoughts - I use the label "subjective" because their your actual point of view. How about objective thoughts - thoughts about what is being experienced now? What do they tell you?
Observe. Notice. See. Use your eyes. Look for this thing, the separate self. What happens when you drop your habitual way of thinking and you look to what is here? Can you see a you?
If I observe these phenomenas, then I manage to be free of clinging to some level, if not, old tendencies take place, because of clinging to experience I run after desire, become jealous, I react to mosquito bite instead of just neutrally being aware of pleasant or unpleasant sensation, thought arising etc.. Isn't the liberation to be free from that too? only because of ego, the sense of "I" the clinging is taking place..
First you see if a separate is real or illusory. Then, when you are sure, when realization happens, you can deal with these kind of questions. At the time being they are in the way of seeing clearly what I'm pointing to. This isn't like a mental puzzle where you put all the pieces in their place and voilá, the image gets clear. You don't need to think to see what is here, do you? Have a look. Use the senses, use the eyes, look around. Do you see a you?
liberated masters like Ramana and others were equanimous and fully free from identification with the body even in life threatening, painful diseases, what to talk about a mosquito bite..
If that's 100% the case it's very likely that they did years of practice to reach a "higher" state. Years of practice!
What we are doing here isn't a practice, and the goal isn't to make you enter a state, reach a specific kind of experience - like equanimity - or get rid of identification. It's simpler than. You don't need years of practice to see that a self is illusory. You just have to look with clear eyes to what is here as it is. Have a look. Do you see a you?
Hand is moving, but there seems to be someone who is a initiator and controller of movement of the hand. It's different from automatic jerking of limb of its own.. Of course I understand you will ask me to find where is that controller..
It may be different. And it may seem there is a initiator. --> these are hipoteses, ideas about how things may be.
We aren't trying to understand and getting caught in possibilities isn't helpful either.

Imagine that you are an outside viewer looking to what is going on. What would you see? A body with a hand moving or something - an entity - making the hand move? Picture what's happening using imagination. Do you see a you? Even better, use a mirror. Look to what is happening. Do you see a you initiating or controlling any movement?

Take care,
C

User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:20 pm

OK, got it, I got caught up with trying to understand things intellectually..

I see the body, I see the process of thinking, fingers typing the words of mind generated thoughts, memories from the stories of LU book coming up, ideas to go intellectual way again..

If I ask where is this me? then there is a sensation in the chest as an answer, different thoughts..
Thoughts, sensations about current experience of "me" are arising the same as all the other sensations, thoughts, stories of the mind, they are no different from others. "I" seems to be a bunch of mind generated stories, it is also identified as sensation.
I can not find a solid source, core of me if I look. Only the process of awareness itself seems permanent, all what is experienced, is changing, but if I look where is experiencer it is just another sensation, thought, story about experience as mine.

I see the body, idea that it is me or mine is a story, one of many.. There is a sensation, tension happening in the body, itch, want to rub the hand, then a thought to rub or not, then rubbing the itch, again a thought. There seemed to be an initiation to do the rubbing, cause it happened after decision to do it, it was stopped when corresponding thought appeared.

By the way, what timezone are you living in, what is the best time for you to give guidance?

Best wishes,
A.


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Canfora » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:37 pm

By the way, what timezone are you living in, what is the best time for you to give guidance?
Why do you ask? It seems to me guidance is going fine. Would you prefer something different? I think the Portuguese timezone is UTC+1 at the time being, same as London.

So Avuso, what would you say is looking for an I?

Is identification with the one that is looking for answers strong?

If I ask you what are you, what would you say?

User avatar
Avuso
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:13 am

Re: Freedom of reality

Postby Avuso » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:46 pm

Hi Canfora!

I asked, to be sure what time is better to write an answer and check for guidance update, cause I'm not having a permanent Internet connection here and because I suspected that there are some hours of difference with Thailand.
But its all fine!

If I ask who is looking for I, answer comes it is mind. But if all what I found when I was looking was just different thoughts, memories, sensations etc, then seems that it is a thought looking for another idea, thought.

Identification with the one who is looking is sometimes very loose, but as I was mentioning, in certain situations something is trigger strong identification in form of attachments, strong emotions etc.

I am idea - Different phenomenas of body and mind happening and being labelled and identified as me and mine.

Take care,
A.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk



Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests