Dzogchen

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Beyond
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:31 pm

Dzogchen

Postby Beyond » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:33 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
indeed it is formed by our subconcious

What are you looking for at LU?
to give up the self, to delf deeper in to the nonsense of this self creation...
to see the contradictions of 'my' ego discours...try to jump out of this conceptual 'matrix' we're trapped into...
give up all this and just BEEEEEEEEEEEEE...

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
giving up the self, to dive into that emptyness of awareness, to try to be at one ...to dissolve into emptyness, to stop labelling...no conceptualizing...
no nothing ...
i understand even here is conceptualisation, i want to get out of this!!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

meditation by bouddhism, knight templar meditation and more

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:49 pm

Hi Beyond,

My name is John and I would be very happy to be your guide.

A few quick notes before we get going.

If you haven't already done so please take a look at the "Read this first" topic at:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... f=4&t=2109
particularly the three guidelines under "How does it work?"

It's also a good idea to get familiar with the forum's "quote" function as we will be using it quite a bit: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

Please read the disclaimer at: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

Let me know when you have had a good look at the above and that you have read the disclaimer.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
giving up the self, to dive into that emptyness of awareness, to try to be at one ...to dissolve into emptyness, to stop labelling...no conceptualizing...
no nothing ...
i understand even here is conceptualisation, i want to get out of this!!

Thank you for being honest about your expectations - I wonder if you can consider the possibility that everything you have imagined about "seeing through the illusion of a separate self" might be a hindrance to this inquiry? We are going to be looking at your actual experience of reality as it is, and, for the purpose of this inquiry, it would be great if you were able to resist evaluating anything you discover against your expectations … what a Zen Buddhist might call "beginner's mind" … How do you feel about that?

I am really looking forward to going through this with you :)

Kind wishes,

John.

User avatar
Beyond
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Beyond » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:00 pm

let's try indeed...
and let it be as it issssssssssssss

thanks btw for the ear

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:06 pm

Great, let’s get this inquiry started!

When you read the next paragraph I would like you to pay close attention to your immediate reactions as you allow the meaning of what is being expressed to sink in. What thoughts come up? What are your emotional responses? Do you notice any bodily sensations? … Here comes the paragraph:

There is no separate self entity in real life at all. There is no doer, no owner, no experiencer. The so-called separate self is a fantasy figure, it only exists in imagination, it does not have any existence in reality.

What do you think? How do you feel? Looking forward to hearing about your reactions.

Kind wishes,

John.

User avatar
Beyond
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Beyond » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:08 pm

resonating here...
it's all a mirage indeed...
just a connect feeling at the heart...

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:21 pm

Ok, let's start with something from your registration form:

What are you looking for at LU?
to give up the self

What is "the self" that you are looking to "give up"?

User avatar
Beyond
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Beyond » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:56 pm

Good question...to give up the self: there's nothing to give up!!!!!!!!!
but You know as i know we're still bound in this mirage (at least i am)...and i want to liberate this mirage idea/concept

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:04 pm

Yes, it is a very good question :)

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

  • You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
  • Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Kind wishes,

John.

User avatar
Beyond
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Beyond » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:58 am

i agree
the former is mind stuff
the second is instant source stuff

i had such 'feeling ' when some day talking to a collegue of mine about strategies used by our mind: for me theere are four:
1. the entrance, 2. the pattern recognition,3. the acting, 4. the automatisation (the new entrance door for new starting processing): this 4° one day i said now i see/feel it what it means, she said of course i know (but she didn't feel it or graspped it i saw!!!)... something like that....

the second is the moment by moment expierence/feeling/seeing: the present as a present...

greetz to You and kind regards

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:44 pm

the second is the moment by moment expierence/feeling/seeing: the present as a present...

Yes, perfect, and that is what we are going to be working with … if the idea of a separate self is anything more than an idea it will need to show up in experience somehow, and if you cannot find any evidence for it in experience, then questions about how “you” are bound to this mirage, and how “you” can liberate this mirage, will no longer make any sense!

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about twenty minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

First of all spend ten minutes writing down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now. During the ten minutes pay attention to any bodily sensations, is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I” - just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: Sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. Again, watch what is happening in the body.

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

User avatar
Beyond
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Beyond » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:35 pm

1. second more authentic (from the heart so to speak)
2. second of course
3. no affect but describtion
4. as if the body DISappears...

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:07 pm

4. as if the body DISappears...

I am really looking for a description of the actual experience - so for example, during the first ten minute exercise you might have felt some tension arising in the back of your neck and shoulders, but during the second exercise perhaps there was a complete lack of any physical sensations from anywhere in the body. Your answer is an interpretation of an actual experience, which is perfectly ok in normal conversations, but for the purpose of this inquiry it will be much more fruitful for you if you can stay with describing the actual experience itself. I will post an exercise tomorrow which should help you to get in touch with what is "real" ;)

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:58 am

Good morning Beyond, I hope you are well today, we are going to do an exercise to help you get in touch with what is "real".

Here is our working definition of the word real:

“That which is actually here, that does not disappear if you stop believing in it.”

The chair that you are sitting on does not disappear if you stop believing in it, the unicorn in your garden does.

Here is an exercise for you:

Imagine that you are holding a spoon.

Imagine the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.

Keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?

So how did you see that there is no spoon?

What happened to the spoon?

Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.

Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.

Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?

Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?

How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity, spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

User avatar
Beyond
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Beyond » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:40 am

By closing my eyes i van still Sense An heart rate, a weight of a body, as the spoon holding and feeling it's weight but no sight of that spoon of that body, imagine something Alike is possible but it's not real .
But when a feeling of itching is there hands Will scratch though...: There the believe Starts maybe: it's happening in MY body...

Fine day wishes too 🤗

User avatar
Monkfield
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen

Postby Monkfield » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:59 am

Ok, so now you have seen the difference between the experience of a real spoon and the experience of an imaginary spoon ... let's do exactly the same thing with a separate self :)

But when a feeling of itching is there hands Will scratch though...: There the believe Starts maybe: it's happening in MY body...

That's a great observation! The belief that "I" am the body, or that "I" have a body - it is "my" body - is quite a common one ... but is it true? Let's take a look.

Close your eyes and bring your attention to a noticeable bodily sensation - a feeling of itching in the hands if there is one, or the sensations of your legs in contact with the chair, or your feet on the floor, anything that provides you with a tangible experience of feeling a part of the body.

Now repeat the following two descriptions of this experience:

1. "I am feeling my body"

2. "feeling the body is happening"

Stay with this experience of the bodily sensations for a while and repeat the two descriptions occasionally.

Is there a difference between the experiences when you say "I am feeling my body" and when you say "feeling the body is happening"?

Is there an actual experience of an owner of "my body"? or does the actual experience only consist of bodily sensations?

Is there an actual experience of a feeler of the feeling? or does the actual experience only consist of the feeling?

It seems to be a common assumption that experiences are experienced by an experiencer, but can you consider the possibility that the assumption is simply wrong!?

Is it possible that there is just experience, with no separate experiencer?


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests