Mistaken Identity

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Xander
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Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:59 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
that it's about Truth. That it's not about adding another belief or set of beliefs, another concept, a theory, a philosophy. That it's about looking at what's real. Seeing the true as true and the false as false, Cutting through all the "specialness" of spirituality and going to the root.

What are you looking for at LU?
That would suppose there is a "me" there to look. jaja. To clarify once and for all where I'm at. Maybe that last push over the edge, or simply more clarity where I'm standing. Curiosity. Maybe a sense of validation to know I'm not crazy.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To clear up the loose ends. Someone to test me in an objective manner since thoughts can't be trusted. An outside perspective, that not just understands this in theory, but is it, in flesh and bone, in reality. Someone to force me to face my fears, and show me that their was nothing ever to be afraid of in reality, because there was no "me".

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
It's fuzzy. Went from Psychology, to Philosophy, to Spirituality and the mighty search for enlightenment. Don't know how specific you want this. Went through Skinner and Maslow, Freud, Pavlov, James. Then through all the typical self help things Like Wayne Dyer and Chopra and all that.Philosophy with Nietzche, Descartes, Plato, Senneca, Marcus Aurelius, Camus, etc.

With Spirituality, The Tao Te Ching, the Dharmapadas, the Bhagavad Gita, Yoga Sutras, Upanishads, all the typical things I imagine. And much later. I bumped into Alan Watts, Eckart Tolle, Ramana Maharshi, Jed Mckenna, Sailor Bob Adamson, Jeff Foster, etc. And things started clicking. Did death awareness, and spiritual autolosys. Worked on asking myself "Who am "I"? Realized that there was a huge difference between understanding "no-self" and really loooking past all the labels and beliefs. Some time back I had read Jed Mckenna, and in a weird way, it helped me find the Ruthless Arena. And reading Brutal Beginings, things became more in focus, after looking, instead of getting lost in thoughts and theories, And since then, I sort of feel walking between two worlds, that there is no "me" and then all of a sudden, I'm wrapped up in "me". that I know there will always be the idea of a "me". Which now I'm starting to see that it's not so strange to be in that place. I just started reading the book Liberation Unleashed and I'm about 30% in, and it mentioned that somewhere. That you drop in and out of this "me" because "me" still remains, as a fictional character, but it still remains. that just like theirs thoughts, and sensations, etc, that since "I" is a thought, and thoughts rise and fall, appear and disappear, it will always be part of the experience of life itself. Maybe I rambled on. Maybe I didn't say enough. Maybe it wasn't specific.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Anastacia42
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:34 am

Hi Xander,

My name is Stacy & I can be your guide, if you like.

What would you like me to call you?

Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:52 am

Hi Stacy. Nice to meet you. I'd very much enjoy your presence as my guide. You can call me Xander, Alex, Alexander, Hey You, jaja, whatever you'd like.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:58 am

Nice to meet you, too, Xander, Alex, Alexander, jaja, etc. ;)

So a couple of guidelines:

Please answer from your direct experience in the moment, rather than anything you've read or heard, as best you can.

Please try to post once a day and let me know if you are going to be away for a day or two. I will do the same.

First, what expectations do you have about liberation and realizing no self? How do you expect you or your life to change?

Much love,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:03 am

Thank you for this, thank you for your time. I'll be posting every day, and if I wont, I'll let you know. Thank you.

"what expectations do you have about liberation and realizing no self? How do you expect you or your life to change?"

Whatever I wrote, I erased. Trying to as as honest as possible for this process. I had expectations. Not sure if you would like me to mention what I thought my expectations were. Now, right now, here, this moment, I'll try to explain the best way possible what i expect from liberation. And it's such a good question because for so long I've had so many expect. It's funny how right away I want to get into what I don't expect instead of what I do expect.

I expect to see things as they are.

I expect to see the Reality of Life. Not just some distorted version seen through the lense of thoughts and stories.

I expect that "I", "me", will always be there, and that it's okay, that it's part of the experience, but it's not in control of the experience, it's not real, it's a tool of reference in language to point back to this body mind thing when communicating with others. But it can't be found anywhere.

I expect everything to be the same. Like that whole. Chopping wood and carrying water thing. or before enlightenement a mountain was a mountain, and after enlightenment a mountain was a mountain. But without that "me" there, without that "I", taking credit and praise, blame, guilt, worry, for everything. Without that "I" there to set goals, objectives, worry about the past, project into the ture. That yes. There will be thoughts of that sort. But there is no "I", no self, so it's nothing to take serious. that instead of focusing on the thoughts, I'll pay attention to the here and now, the present moment, the direct experience. The sensations. that's what I expect. I hope I answered the question sufficiently, while making it as short and concise as possible.

And do feel free on making me clarify whatever needs to be clarified. Thank you for your time. big hugs.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:53 am

You are quite welcome and thank you!

This is good. 100% honesty about what comes up in this moment is best. Thank you for that.

It is good that you saw yourself about to say what you don't expect. Great job of answering what was asked and not something different. That will help you tremendously here.

Yes, you answered sufficiently and concisely. Let's move on.

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you,” nor is there or will be there ever be?

What feelings, thoughts and sensations show up in this moment?

Big hugs to you,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:16 am

Hey Stacy,

Thank you again. For being my guide. And for you
What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you,” nor is there or will be there ever be?

What feelings, thoughts and sensations show up in this moment?
"There is no you" is read, and thoughts of all sorts come up. I knew I wasn't crazy. You do realize when you say "I" it's not a real thing, right buddy? But there has to be an "I", I'm the one doing this? You're just a thought? Focus. Look. Don't get lost in thought. Hey, that's just another thought. Well, that's what I am, just a thought. Well, a thought can't create or do or control or do anything, it just comes and goes. II can give more examples if you want. But it's just a stream of thoughts. That doesn't stop or even make much sense at all. Just these babbling voices. Thoughts and thoughts of thoughts, just happening. No one causing them or creating them, just happening.

Sensation and feeling wise. A sense of less seriousness. A slight smirk on the face. A swelling in the heart. A sigh of relief. A sense of not happiness but more like contentment or being at ease. Relief. Stillness. "There is no you" hits like a gong, it's not a concept, it's not a brief, it's not a philosophy. It's something to see in direct experience. And those words "there is no you" is like a gong, that sounds out and deafens the thoughts. And all there is at that moment is this, these sensations. The sensation of keyboard keys being pressed by the finger tips, fingers dancing over the keyboard, aliveness, the cool air passing the nostrils, the thumping of the heart, the sound of traffic in the background, the light coming in through the yes from the monitor even though they're closed, the feeling of the weight of the body pressed against the seat, the slight breeze coming through the crack in the door, the cold hard cement floor against the bare feet.

"there is no you and there never was a you" seems to bring up thoughts of fear and doubt. While at the same time, it brings up sensations and feeling of serenity and effortlessness.

Hope I didn't get too off track with the sensations and feelings bit.

Hope you're having a good night, big hugs, much love,

Xander

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:27 am

And just to clarify. When the words "there is no you" are read. Thoughts wise the thought of a "me" comes up, or the idea, comes up, or thoughts about the thought of "me". But feelings sensations wise, direct experience wise, theirs all these feelings and sensations but there is no me there at all.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:24 pm

Good morning! (In US Mountain Time)

Yes, when now is observed it is amazing the detail and sensation we find. You were not off track in going into details. That's very helpful.

Not much detail was mentioned about the "fear and doubts." Can you say more about these?

Hugs & much love,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:03 pm

Gooooood morning Stacy.

Just want to mention again. Thank you for your time and your guidance.

Fears and doubts. It's weird and funny and confusing to explain. Fear of just understanding this only on an intellectual level. Fear of wasting your time. Fear of "I" taking ownership of the experience. Fear of ranting and getting off course. Fear of fooling myself. Fear of losing "me". Fear of tricking myself into believing and not seeing. Fear that I can't trust my thoughts. Fear that I can't do this. Fear of getting lost in thought. Fear of a lack of goals and expectations. Fear of letting go of "me". Fear of being detached/indifferent towards the people I love. Fear that the mind just made up all this stuff, as response to a question. That's what comes up at this moment, this moment right now, from the mind.

Most of the time I use the word "I", i sense, that pulling of ownership, This sense of something saying, "I'm doing this" I'm hearing that," etc. And then with thoughts following up, supporting it.

It's weird because these fears aren't felt as sensations or experience, if that makes any sense. They're thoughts of the mind. And the thoughts themselves, seem to create a sensation, good bad heavy light etc. But they only seem cause a sensation only when I get lost in mind thoughts, and ignoring the direct experience at the moment and what's going on. It's as if thoughts of a "me" are trying to layer themselves over the actual experience, and trying to make me think that the labels and the descriptions, are the experience itself, that way, there can be a "I" as the doer of experience.

I wonder if that makes sense.

Hope you're day is going well, and thank you very much for being my guide Stacy. I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. Big hugs.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:02 am

Thank you, Xander. I'm also grateful for the opportunity to guide.

You're making perfect sense. Language is designed around this concept of "I." There are ways of speaking a little more accurately that we may come to later.

What does this word "I" point to?

Who is this "I" that is having these thoughts of fear? Or doubt? Or even the relaxation and ease?

Take your time with it.

Next post I may suggest an exercise for you to work with.

Much love & gratitude,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:02 am

Good afternoon,

It feels good, as in a, sense of ease, effortless, to be clearing up and clarifying these things. Thank you Stacy.

fAnd language wise, it feels more honest, real, when I describe things in the verb sense instead of in the subject sense, without the "I". But like you said, we'll get more into that later on.

"What does this word "I" point to?"
jajajaja. It just makes me laugh. Can't help it. I could get into a description of what I thought "I" pointed to. But that was then, this is now. The word, "I", points to, a thought, a concept, an idea. To something that doesn't exist and never did. the word "I" points to an assumption that was never examined, that was never questioned, so was taken as true or real. And even though the word "I", is a thoughts, and it has other thoughts, that describe the thought of "I", it's still just a thought, a word, a label.

Who is this "I" that is having these thoughts of fear? Or doubt? Or even the relaxation and ease?

A fictional character. A thought that says it's the body and mind. A narrator, that is describing experience right after it happens, trying to describe it right as in happens. Experience?life happens, "I" is part of the experience, but not the experience. "I" is not separate, It's part of the experience. There is no "I" having thoughts of fear or doubt or relaxation. Thoughts are coming up. They come, they stay a while. They go. On and on it goes. The thought "I" can't think, The thought "I" can do anything or cause anything or control anything. "I" is just a thought/story. And it sticks to a great deal of thoughts, and that combined with language, and social conditioning, makes it seem real, even though its not. It's just an illusion. A persistent one. But an illusion none the less.

Feel free to point out whatever I need clarifying.

And hope you had a terrific day. I wrote that and I laugh. How could it not be terrific. jaja. Big hugs.

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:05 am

Oh yeah, you also mentioned that next post you might give me an exercise to work with. Great, terrific. Wonderful. Whatever you feel might help me in this process. I'm all in. Rock on! Yeaaaaaaaaaah! Exciting stuff. Anything thing, that you feel would help me, in this process, I would deeply appreciate it. thank you Stacy.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:17 am

Hi Xander!

Hello! Hello! Really thought this response would have been earlier in the day, but this is the first time the laptop has been turned on today.
language wise, it feels more honest, real, when I describe things in the verb sense instead of in the subject sense, without the "I". But like you said, we'll get more into that later on.
This is perfectly fine. If it feels more honest to describe things in the verb sense, without the "I" do that when that is what comes up. Joy and laughter usually accompany recognition of no self, yes. Delighting in your delight! It *is* exciting.

Also, it is best not to gloss over any fears and doubts. That is why elaboration was requested. This will be the subject of this exercise.

You said that at first fear is a thought, and the thought may create a sensation. Is that right?

Yes, fear only happens when ignoring direct experience at the moment. Fear is about the future. (Depression is about the past.)

Delve a into these fears next with this exercise:

When fear is noticed, stay with it. Find where in the body it is felt. There is no reason to fear the fear. Respect it. Once this is done, look at what is behind the fear. Do with with whatever fear is coming up - one from the list you gave (nice list, by the way!) or another that is present in the moment.

Report what is found.

Much love and blessings,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Xander
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Re: Mistaken Identity

Postby Xander » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:20 pm

Goooooooood morning Stacy.

Hope all finds you well. And I agree completely, best not to gloss over anything, that's why I'm here after all.

Let me try to express this as best possible. Even though it's not exactly what you asked me but has to do with what you asked me, and well, the words seem to be typing themselves to here we go. jaja. It feels easier, more effortless, to be in this moment, in the direct experience, witnessing. And theirs hearing and seeing, sensations from the body etc. And thoughts are there, but in the background, like a distant voice, almost like if I don't focus or pay attention to them, I don't energize them or relinquish power or attention to them.

Let's use something from the List Of Fears. Getting lost in thoughts. Fear of something that hasn't happened yet. It sounds so silly. especially considering theirs no future, theirs only thoughts. And they're all happening Now, in the present moment. And sillier even because theirs no one there for it to happen to. But I look over the words again. Fear of getting lost in thought. And I scan the body, Nope, doesn't come from the foot, nope, not from the finger either. Nope, definitely not from the eyeball. So where does this fear come from? The only place that it seems to come from is the mind. But it's weird. Because where is mind, it's not the brain. It's like "me", there isn't a "me", and there inst a mind. So, where does this "fear of getting lost in thought" come from? I don't know. I feel that it doesn't even matter. The closest thing I can say it comes from, is the idea of "me" projecting the idea of it self in the future. Well, or at least have thoughts about projecting itself into the future, not that the thought "I" can have thoughts, but their can be other thoughts about the "I" thought. Fear of getting lost in thoughts. Sensation wise. And this might sound goofy. Sensation wise, it seems to bring up a tightness in the heart or chest area. Nothing extreme. Very subtle. But it's a momentary contraction and then it leaves, it dissipates. Kind of like when you are walking down a flight of stairs, and you miss one, and you feel like you're slipping, and going to fall, and you get that fear scared sensation, but then in a little bit it slips away. And the goofy thing is that, the more I look into the fear. It actually seems to go away faster. Instead of when trying to ignore it. Or distract myself from it.

Well, I know that was pretty long, Hopefully I was able to express myself adequately. I

And it feels amazing to be clearing up these things. Thank you for being there.

Hope you have a terrific day.

Big hugs

Xander


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