I want to stop this now!

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:58 pm

Yes. I do that, and it's good and all. It actually helps a bit, but just as long as I'm attending to it. However, it does not give total satisfaction. It doesn't stop the search. Eventually, mind goes elsewhere because of boredom or something.

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Eloratea
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:59 pm

Yes. I do that, and it's good and all. It actually helps a bit, but just as long as I'm attending to it. However, it does not give total satisfaction.
Helps in what way?
This is not about feeling better but in feeling whatever comes up. Is there resistance to something that is?
It doesn't stop the search. Eventually, mind goes elsewhere because of boredom or something.
Actually, when you say mind what do you mean? What does it refer to in direct experience?

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:23 pm

Helps in what way?
I mean that the agony is not quite that strong.
This is not about feeling better but in feeling whatever comes up. Is there resistance to something that is?
There's a restlessness. A sense of not being done yet. A sense of being lost and confused, and therefore looking for a total certainty and contentment.
Actually, when you say mind what do you mean? What does it refer to in direct experience?
It refers to the looking for a solution to the problem of not being satisfied. The looking dismisses the current thing as not the solution and goes somewhere else looking.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:37 am

I mean that the agony is not quite that strong.
Agony is just a call for attention; wake up call. Don't run away. Don't meet it just half way.
There's a restlessness. A sense of not being done yet. A sense of being lost and confused, and therefore looking for a total certainty and contentment.
There is no one to be done or not, lost or confused. There are just thoughts and feelings appearing now. If it is agony, look at it, what it is made of? Get familiar with it, it is a sign-post to clarity.
It refers to the looking for a solution to the problem of not being satisfied.
Is there anyone to be not satisfied? Or it is just a feeling of not being satisfied? How it comes into being?
The looking dismisses the current thing as not the solution and goes somewhere else looking.
Truth is not somewhere else. It is here and now. Ready to see the truth means ready to face here and now; to zoom in this actual experience, here and now. Do the clouds of thoughts and feelings hide something?

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:22 pm

If it is agony, look at it, what it is made of?
I don't know what it is made of. It's a feeling.
Is there anyone to be not satisfied? Or it is just a feeling of not being satisfied? How it comes into being?
Okay, it is a feeling of not being satisfied. I don't know how it comes into being. It is just there.
Do the clouds of thoughts and feelings hide something?
I don't know. I can't see that they do.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:18 am

I don't know what it is made of. It's a feeling.
And what are feelings? Aren't they thoughts plus sensations that can be felt in the body? If you leave aside a thought and feel the sensation it fades away.
It seems to me that there is a resistance to something in your experience; see what it is. What is not ok and should be changed for liberation to happen?
Eloratea wrote:Is there anyone to be not satisfied? Or it is just a feeling of not being satisfied? How it comes into being?
Okay, it is a feeling of not being satisfied.
Okay? You sure that there is no one there? What is the problem than?
Eloratea wrote:Do the clouds of thoughts and feelings hide something?
I don't know. I can't see that they do.
Isn't there some space like sky in which all thoughts and feelings happen, passing by?

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:09 am

And what are feelings? Aren't they thoughts plus sensations that can be felt in the body?
Sure. A thought evokes a certain sensation in the body.
If you leave aside a thought and feel the sensation it fades away.
You mean if I don't focus any attention on the thought?
It seems to me that there is a resistance to something in your experience; see what it is. What is not ok and should be changed for liberation to happen?
Yes, there's resistance. There's desires. These desires are the very resistance. So, these desires must go for liberation to happen. However, they don't disappear by themselves, and I can't really will them away.
Okay? You sure that there is no one there? What is the problem than?
You seem to assume that just because I know that I'm not some thing in particular that that should somehow leave me without problems. That just because I know that I'm not my thoughts and feelings there's no suffering. Why is that?
Isn't there some space like sky in which all thoughts and feelings happen, passing by?
Yeah. Thoughts happen in my head, and feelings are felt in my stomach and chest area.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:07 pm

Eloratea wrote:If you leave aside a thought and feel the sensation it fades away.
You mean if I don't focus any attention on the thought?
Yes. To shift attention on feeling the sensation.
Eloratea wrote:It seems to me that there is a resistance to something in your experience; see what it is. What is not ok and should be changed for liberation to happen?
Yes, there's resistance. There's desires. These desires are the very resistance. So, these desires must go for liberation to happen.
No :) nothing has to go for liberation to happen. It may well go later on, but for the first step to happen nothing has to go away. It is just seeing what is happening.
However, they don't disappear by themselves, and I can't really will them away.
Sure, you can only see if there is anyone behind them.
There are authentic desires which lead life manifestation in a certain way.
And there are non-authentic desires based on belief in some separate entity living his own life.
You seem to assume that just because I know that I'm not some thing in particular that that should somehow leave me without problems. That just because I know that I'm not my thoughts and feelings there's no suffering. Why is that?
Do you know intellectually that you are no-thing, no-thoughts, no-feelings– or it has been SEEN?
There might be problems, if you want to call them so. Might be also suffering. But what is really suffering if there is no sufferer? If there is no story, what is suffering?
Eloratea wrote:Isn't there some space like sky in which all thoughts and feelings happen, passing by?
Yeah. Thoughts happen in my head, and feelings are felt in my stomach and chest area.
I wouldn't say that thoughts happen in the head :), but however is there something in which also happen the body?
Look deeper into experience, feel, explore and than write a bit more. Writing helps to get more clarity on what is really going on.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:03 pm

Do you know intellectually that you are no-thing, no-thoughts, no-feelings– or it has been SEEN?
I know I am no-thing, no-thoughts, no-feelings because I know all these things. They are known to me, and therefore I cannot be those things. Maybe that is just intellectual understanding? But how can it be seen that it is so, if I am the very one that sees?
There might be problems, if you want to call them so. Might be also suffering. But what is really suffering if there is no sufferer? If there is no story, what is suffering?
Well, the body is the sufferer. It is in the body that suffering is taking place. So there is a sufferer. And for there to be no story, the body must die. As long as the body is alive it suffers from different things.
I wouldn't say that thoughts happen in the head :), but however is there something in which also happen the body?
Why wouldn't you say that? The body is here in the world.
Look deeper into experience, feel, explore and than write a bit more. Writing helps to get more clarity on what is really going on.
I have done this a lot in the past, and it hasn't liberated me yet. I find it kinda pointless to keep looking at something that obviously doesn't do squat. I'm sorry, but it seems kinda useless at the moment.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:34 pm

Well, the body is the sufferer. It is in the body that suffering is taking place. So there is a sufferer. And for there to be no story, the body must die. As long as the body is alive it suffers from different things.
Body feels the pain. But it is just a sensation. For the suffering thoughts, telling the story about what is happening has to be involved. Just look in your experience. What happens if there is no belief in thoughts?
Why wouldn't you say that?
Thoughts just appear, can't be located where.
The body is here in the world.
And body and the world are in awareness, in this actual experience in which there aren't real borders, just conceptual.
Eloratea wrote:Look deeper into experience, feel, explore and than write a bit more. Writing helps to get more clarity on what is really going on.
I have done this a lot in the past, and it hasn't liberated me yet.
You looked into direct experience here and now and wrote about it?

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:04 pm

What happens if there is no belief in thoughts?
Well, the thoughts loses their power. They're just a blip that comes and goes. What is "belief" in a thought anyway? Isn't "belief" a thought itself, that believes another thought?
Thoughts just appear, can't be located where.
Well, sure they can't be located. Doesn't mean they're not in the head though. Sure feels like they're in the head.
And body and the world are in awareness, in this actual experience in which there aren't real borders, just conceptual.
How can I know this with absolute certainty? How do I know awareness is not in the world and body, as in generated by the brain?
You looked into direct experience here and now and wrote about it?
Okay, so maybe I didn't just then, but I don't know what I'm looking for. Sure, experience is right there in front of me. The world, sensations in the body, thoughts appear and makes this body move it seems. What about all this? What am I really looking for? I mean, I see this every day.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:50 pm

Well, the thoughts loses their power. They're just a blip that comes and goes. What is "belief" in a thought anyway?
Whatever it is it influences greatly the way of perception of reality.
Eloratea wrote:And body and the world are in awareness, in this actual experience in which there aren't real borders, just conceptual.

How can I know this with absolute certainty? How do I know awareness is not in the world and body, as in generated by the brain?
Here we come to our direct experience. That is the only thing we can know.
Only thing we know for sure is this feeling of aliveness and awareness. Does it feel that is located in the body, in the brain?
Eloratea wrote:You looked into direct experience here and now and wrote about it?

Okay, so maybe I didn't just then, but I don't know what I'm looking for. Sure, experience is right there in front of me.
Are you different from experience? Or experiencer, experience and experienced merge into one experience?
The world, sensations in the body, thoughts appear and makes this body move it seems. What about all this? What am I really looking for? I mean, I see this every day.
This is concentrated on looking for self in direct experience and seeing that there is no one there, thus coming in better alignment with reality.

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:17 pm

Here we come to our direct experience. That is the only thing we can know.
Only thing we know for sure is this feeling of aliveness and awareness. Does it feel that is located in the body, in the brain?
Actually, yes. It feels like the aliveness is located in this body.
Are you different from experience? Or experiencer, experience and experienced merge into one experience?
I am different from experience.
This is concentrated on looking for self in direct experience and seeing that there is no one there, thus coming in better alignment with reality.
This I don't understand. If there is no one there, then who is looking?

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:11 am

It feels like the aliveness is located in this body.
Ok, but can you feel abrupt change of aliveness on the edge of the body?
I am different from experience.
How? Can you explain? Where do you end and experience begin?
This I don't understand. If there is no one there, then who is looking?
This is an assumption that there must be someone who looks for looking to happen.
But in reality it is just looking and the thought – I am looking.
Just a few seconds of real honest looking and it is so obvious. No big deal.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:42 pm

Ok, but can you feel abrupt change of aliveness on the edge of the body?
What do you mean?
How? Can you explain? Where do you end and experience begin?
Yes. There is experience of many things. But I don't experience myself. Experience is always of something other than me. But is there a definite line between myself and experience? When looked for this doesn't seem to be the case.

But does that mean that I am experience? No. If all of a sudden all experience would cease - senses would stop sensing, thoughts would stop appearing, sensations would stop appearing - would I still be? Yes. Not as a something though, but I would still be.


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