I want to stop this now!

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:08 pm

This is an assumption. Body is a part of the experience now, actual tool in experiencing
True.
but experience might as well continue some other way, with some other tool...
Yes, but that is an assumption as well.
Also an assumption. You don't have experiences of not aliveness; Just of aliveness, here and now, as you said :)
No, it's not an assumption. There are moments of no experience at all, like for example in deep sleep. So, it's not an assumption, but actually a fact that experience is not continuous.

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Eloratea
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:10 pm

Eloratea wrote: but experience might as well continue some other way, with some other tool...
Yes, but that is an assumption as well.
Sure, we don't know. As we said anything beside our direct experience is a speculation.
There are moments of no experience at all, like for example in deep sleep. So, it's not an assumption, but actually a fact that experience is not continuous.
It is an experience of deep sleep; one of the states of body and mind without I-thought.

But, tek, this is about simple looking in direct experience in normal waking mode of the body and reporting from there. If you are worried about your existence after the disappearance of the body, I can just remind you to look first here and now and see that there isn’t you already. Just life...


best,
el

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:30 pm

It is an experience of deep sleep; one of the states of body and mind without I-thought.
I don't see it that way. For me it's the background only, without experience in it. Awareness only, if that sound more appropriate.
But, tek, this is about simple looking in direct experience in normal waking mode of the body and reporting from there. If you are worried about your existence after the disappearance of the body, I can just remind you to look first here and now and see that there isn’t you already. Just life...
So, all you can say is "look here and now in your direct experience, and you will be free". Some help you are. Not like I've never heard that before. Oh well, thanks for trying anyway.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Eloratea » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:46 pm

Well, yes, somehow it is all about that.

Sorry for not being able to help you. Would you like me ask some other guide to continue this with you?

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:52 pm

No problem, mate.

Well, you can always check if someone is up to the task.

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Chronophonix
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Chronophonix » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:38 am

Hi Tek !

I will continue with you.
First, would you give me a real name ?
Here, it's Michael.

Come back to your early messages:
I've had moments of total clarity and experiences of what I can only describe as Samahdi,

Could you describe that briefly ?

it has never been enough

How would it be if it was enough ? What is missing ?

Something exist, I can say, but I cannot say what it is without using thought. And if I do, it is not that.
This aliveness is not known in that way. It just is, and it is certain.
Yes, it is pretty clear that there is only now, and that past and future are only thought images.
If you have clearly seen all that, what do you need more ?
As a side note, I'm not really sure that this aliveness is in this body, or if this body and everything else is in this aliveness.
How would you feel if you were 100% sure that «this body and everything else is in this aliveness.» ?

OK, I let you now with these questions.
Namaste
Michael[/color]
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:28 am

Hi Tek !

I will continue with you.
Hello,

That's nice.
First, would you give me a real name ?
You can call me Tom.
Could you describe that briefly ?
Okay.

These moments have been where it has been seen that there is no separation between myself and everything else. Realization that there were no boundaries between myself and what was experienced. One could say that the line between Subject (Me) and objects was erased. And there was immense joy in that moment.
How would it be if it was enough ? What is missing ?
Coming to think of it, I don't really know, since I have never experienced "enough". I speculate though, that it would be experience without missing anything... without wanting anything... without desire for something.
If you have clearly seen all that, what do you need more ?
You say it as if that should be enough, when clearly for me it is not. There's still a lot of desires, and the biggest desire is the desire to be rid of desire.
How would you feel if you were 100% sure that «this body and everything else is in this aliveness.» ?
Well, I guess I don't know that either. However, I speculate that I wouldn't feel this anxiety for the body. I wouldn't be afraid to die, because I would knew I could never die. I would be at peace.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Chronophonix » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:35 pm

Hi Tom

These moments have been where it has been seen that there is no separation between myself and everything else. Realization that there were no boundaries between myself and what was experienced. One could say that the line between Subject (Me) and objects was erased. And there was immense joy in that moment.

Very nice; can I assume you would like to live in this state all the time ?
In what circumstances does that happened to you ?

the biggest desire is the desire to be rid of desire.

Do you feel the paradox in this assertion ? I can give a paradoxal answer : you have first to be rid of desire to be rid of desire ! But this will not help you.
A better way is to think like that : not to be rid of desire, but to be free from desire; you will still have desires, but it will no more matter if they are realized or not.

Can you actually accept, and so be in peace with your anxiety for the body, your fear from death, your lack of inner peace ? Acceptation is prior to anything : first, accept what it is, as it is, then do what is possible to do.

I give you here links to some interesting articles :
http://www.wearesentience.com/awakening ... ation.html
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on ... zen-young/

Read, enjoy, and tell me if it has been useful.

Namaste
Michael
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:07 pm

Very nice; can I assume you would like to live in this state all the time ?
I wouldn't mind that, no. Hehe.
In what circumstances does that happened to you ?
The first few times I had this experience was on psychedelic drugs. After these experiences I buried myself in books on spirituality, and started doing some spiritual practice.
Then, a couple of years later, it happened all of a sudden while I was at the gym. I had just completed a set, and put down the weights. As I catched my breath, all of a sudden it seemed like the borders that separates objects were not really borders at all. Lines and forms were still seen, but it was as if they melted together somehow. Even the border between Subject and objects were gone! Everything was not-two.
This has happened a few times after that, and usually a great peace and a great joy follows for a couple of days, but eventually everything goes back to as it was before.
A better way is to think like that : not to be rid of desire, but to be free from desire; you will still have desires, but it will no more matter if they are realized or not.
I can go with that.
Can you actually accept, and so be in peace with your anxiety for the body, your fear from death, your lack of inner peace ? Acceptation is prior to anything : first, accept what it is, as it is, then do what is possible to do.
I can accept that this is what is happening, yes. I am actually very good at acceptance of what is. Accepting does not rid the fear and lack of inner peace though. It doesn't seem to alleviate the suffering.
I give you here links to some interesting articles :
http://www.wearesentience.com/awakening ... ation.html
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on ... zen-young/

Read, enjoy, and tell me if it has been useful.
Very good. I have to tell you though, that the first link resonated more with me than the second one. Why I think this is so is actually ironically because of something that is mentioned in the second article. Namely this:
Buddhists say enlightenment is to realize there is no Atma, which is interpreted as self-as-thing. Most Hindu teachers say enlightenment is to find the Atma, which is interpreted as the True Perceiver, or the Nature of consciousness that’s in some way behind all the appearances. So one says find the true Atma and the other says there truly is no Atma. You might think they’re talking about completely different experiences but as far as I can see they’re using different descriptions in talking about the same thing.
I have studied mostly Advaita Vedanta, and therefore I am accustomed to that language. For me terms like "I don't exist" doesn't seem that logical because of this. I don't resonate much with Buddhism.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Chronophonix » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:28 am

Hi Tom

After these experiences I buried myself in books on spirituality, and started doing some spiritual practice.


I began spiritual path exactly like you : but some years after initial experiences, I engaged myself with a french master, Arnaud Desjardins for more than 20 years, and I can witness that for me, a living master is really better than only books. (Arnaud died last summer, in August 2011)
You will find samples (in english) of his teachings here :
http://www.arnauddesjardinsdvds.com/ind ... ge=01&lg=e

Accepting does not rid the fear and lack of inner peace though.

I speculate that I wouldn't feel this anxiety for the body


Can you describe with more details this fear ? And this anxiety for the body ? And how they influence your life ?

I am actually very good at acceptance of what is

I speculate though, that it would be experience without missing anything... without wanting anything... without desire for something.


Do you feel the contradiction ? There's a part within you which refuses strongly your actual living experience, and this part makes you desire something else than what is. You have to find who is this you who have never experienced "enough".

It's obvious that this you feeds itself with thoughts about what should be. This you makes your life impossible, but you are completely stuck in it. So, you have to find it, burn it, to be free from it; in the path I'd followed, we call that manonasha : destruction of the mind. (mind from the word manas in sanskrit)

Sometimes, some dramatic situation in life forces this destruction (as it happened to me), a situation where this "I", this mind can be no longer tolerated. When this happens, the "I", hence the seeker vanish, it's the end of the spiritual search. (It took for me several years to stabilize)

You just need a shift in your perception of yourself, and this shift is not intellectual, it must come from intuition(intuition, in the sense of non-verbal knowing)

You already have what you need, but you don't see it. And you have all elements to see it.

Namaste
Michael
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:54 pm

I began spiritual path exactly like you : but some years after initial experiences, I engaged myself with a french master, Arnaud Desjardins for more than 20 years, and I can witness that for me, a living master is really better than only books. (Arnaud died last summer, in August 2011)
You will find samples (in english) of his teachings here :
http://www.arnauddesjardinsdvds.com/ind ... ge=01&lg=e
Interesting. I will have a look.
Can you describe with more details this fear ? And this anxiety for the body ? And how they influence your life ?
Yes. As I think of it, it is not only anxiety for the body. It is anxiety and fear in some areas in life. To summarize:

1. Fear of dying, because the body is fragile and easily physically hurt.

This can show itself in for example that there is sometimes a fear of looking another male in the eyes for an extended period of time, because of fear of being attacked.

2. Fear of emotional and pshychological hurt.

Fear of rejection. Talking to women is a part of this fear, but also other people that is viewed as respectable persons and are admired by others.
Also fear of ridicule.
Fear of losing someone I love.
Fear of being alone.

Well, it seems like I have a lot of fears. And when I write this I realize that I sound like an anxious person. But I'm actually more peaceful than most people. But still, these fears just don't dissipate, despite practicing Self-inquiry for several years now.
All these fears influence me in the way that I never feel totally secure, and I'm never able to rest it seems. Always on edge, so to speak. Restless.
Do you feel the contradiction ? There's a part within you which refuses strongly your actual living experience, and this part makes you desire something else than what is. You have to find who is this you who have never experienced "enough".

It's obvious that this you feeds itself with thoughts about what should be. This you makes your life impossible, but you are completely stuck in it. So, you have to find it, burn it, to be free from it; in the path I'd followed, we call that manonasha : destruction of the mind. (mind from the word manas in sanskrit)
I can only agree with your assessment. Though, I don't think destroying the mind is a correct term. But that's beside the point, and only intellectual masturbation. I do understand what you mean.

How is it done though?
You just need a shift in your perception of yourself, and this shift is not intellectual, it must come from intuition(intuition, in the sense of non-verbal knowing)

You already have what you need, but you don't see it. And you have all elements to see it.
Alright. So where do I start? Where do I begin? What do I do?

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Chronophonix » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:47 pm

Hi Tom

To begin, I send you this link; I just read this 5 minutes ago, and I feel it's interesting for you to read it too.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... 479#p13479

It appears to have similar points with your story. Maybe you could contact him. He says in conclusion «Awareness is, here, now, and the "artifact" of a sense of separate self was clearly seen as just another object in awareness. » It's exactly the point to which you have to go.

Now, come back to this dialog :


Eloratea : So, there is a sense of aliveness labeled as „I am“, isn't that true? Pure sensation plus thought label.

Tom : Yes, absolutely. Though I wouldn't even say that it's a sensation, since sensations are also known. This aliveness is not known in that way. It just is, and it is certain.

Eloratea :This feeling of aliveness, awareness in which everything unfolds, including the thoughts?
Is it personal does it belong to anyone?

Tom : It IS me. Objects can belong to me or someone else, but IT is not an object. IT is who I am. As a side note, I'm not really sure that this aliveness is in this body, or if this body and everything else is in this aliveness.


For me, your sense of "I" as "IT", as awareness/aliveness, which is legitimate, (Ramana Maharshi used the pronoun "I" ) is stuck with the common sense of "I" as a separate person.
If it was not the case, you would not write «I'm not really sure that this aliveness is in this body, or if this body and everything else is in this aliveness» because you would know the answer, and you would not feel this permanent anxiety.
So, you have to investigate on this false "I", this "I" who feels so much fear, this "I" who is afraid to be rejected, attacked, not loved. This false "I" is in a huge lack of love and causes your insecure feeling. And this "I" is not you. Just a thought, just an "artifact" !

At this stage, there are two solutions, and only two.

First, you are strong enough to confront your fear each time it occurs, allowing you to see that this false and fearful "I" is not you, just a thought, an object on the screen of awareness that you can see without being engaged in it. But for that, you must not resist to fear, and it can be a huge challenge. Experiment situations where the fear arises particularly : go talking to women, meet people who intimidate you, try unusual behaviour, challenge yourself and challenge your fear, and see that awareness/aliveness is not affected by fear.

But if you can't do that, you have to investigate within your unconscious with the help of a psychotherapist, if possible spiritually oriented; you have to "drop the shit" before dropping the "I"...
In the path I'd follow, focus was put on this eventuality, and a part of this path was made of talks with advanced disciples to objectivate unconscious mechanisms. Remember that for some people who awakened suddenly, it's a miracle that they were not sent in a psychiatric institution (Eckhart Tolle, for instance)
You can do the same job with a living master, of course.

Arnaud Desjardins himself did such a work with his master, and some deep unconscious complex had to be objectified before he could awake.

See what is possible for you, and tell me.

Namaste
Michael
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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tek
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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby tek » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm

I don't think a psychotherapist is necessary. So, I think the first solution will suffice.

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Re: I want to stop this now!

Postby Chronophonix » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:19 pm

Good ! So, experiment, investigate, and see what happens.
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)


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