Ready to wake up

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bluecat18
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Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:37 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I know that the thing I refer as the "self" or "me" is just made of thoughts, feelings and beliefs. These beliefs determine how I see life. I see and live life through them, not the way life actually is.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to learn how to live life freely. I am tired of the false self-image and ready to see through it once and for all. I look forward to seeing life more clearly. I am looking for help to start living life in reality not in thoughts.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that I will be guided to see my blind spots and the things I still hang on to. I want to be challenged to look at things even though I might not want to. I have been doing the search on my own until now so I suppose that there are a lot of blockages that I have missed.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been seeking something all my life. I studied energy healing, read lots of books, watched youtube videos and listened to audio teachings of different teachers (Adyashanti, Mooji, Michael Rodriquez, Tolle etc). I have meditated for years but not very persistently. Had "going through the gateless gate"-experience couple of years ago following inquiry instructions I found in the internet. Soon after the I was back, or even worse, in a dream as before.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:58 am

Hi Bluecat,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This exploration uses experiential exercises and pointed questions so that you can LOOK and find the answers for yourself. This is not about discovering what you are. It is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get this party started! :)

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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bluecat18
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:49 am

Hi Kay,

thank you for your quick answer. I was prepared for a long wait, because of so many new requests. English is not my mother tongue so I hope you can understand me :)
Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get this party started! :)
Done my homework and ready to go :)

Bluecat

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:44 am

Hey Bluecat,

Thank you for reading the disclaimer and for doing your homework! :) Your English seems fine to me!

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual Experience (AE) refers to your current experience ‘right now,’ without the labels and thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple noticing of thought at face value.When looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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bluecat18
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:31 am

Hi Kay,

I tried to answer without referring to my past experience, but of course they have influenced my current thinking.
How will life change?
Nothing outside will necessarily change. I hope that life will become easier, because I don´t get bothered by my thoughts as much as now. I can experience life as it is.
How will you change?
I will be more authentic, the roles I play in life start to crumble.
What will be different?
I don´t take life so seriously and personally.
What is missing?
The need to value and judge everything from the point of view of this person.

Bluecat

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:38 am

Hey Bluecat,

Okay, so we are addressing expectations here. There will be some that show themselves as we move along in our exploration together also. Let me know what happens when you read my responses. Does frustration, anger, fear, disappointment, resistance appear?
How will life change?
Nothing outside will necessarily change. I hope that life will become easier, because I don´t get bothered by my thoughts as much as now. I can experience life as it is.
There is no “I” who is experiencing life. That would mean there is a you and life which = separation. Life does what life does, and seeming challenges still appear, however it is the perception of what is happening that changes. There is no you who is thinking thoughts either. Thoughts are simply an appearance that come and go.

What will be different?
I don´t take life so seriously and personally.
Correct…there is no “I” to take life so seriously and personally! :) There has never been a separate "I", ever!

What is missing?
The need to value and judge everything from the point of view of this person.
There is no one valuing or judging everything. There are thoughts that appear about valuing and judging, but they are simply thoughts arising and subsiding.

You wrote the following on your introductory post:-
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I know that the thing I refer as the "self" or "me" is just made of thoughts, feelings and beliefs. These beliefs determine how I see life. I see and live life through them, not the way life actually is.
There is no “I” who is living a life. Life is simply lifing.
Actually the “I” is not made up of anything, it is simply the actual experience of thought which is overlaying the raw experience of sensations and colour with a story about them being a ‘me’.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to learn how to live life freely. I am tired of the false self-image and ready to see through it once and for all. I look forward to seeing life more clearly. I am looking for help to start living life in reality not in thoughts.
All there has ever been is reality…it has always been and IS. Thoughts are an appearance in/as this reality, however what thought is, is not what it is thought to be! :)
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that I will be guided to see my blind spots and the things I still hang on to. I want to be challenged to look at things even though I might not want to. I have been doing the search on my own until now so I suppose that there are a lot of blockages that I have missed.
You will certainly be challenged by me, especially if you are using the intellect and not actually looking to what the actual/direct experience is in the moment. I have been known to bring out the zen stick if needed.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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bluecat18
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:51 am

Hi Kay,
Let me know what happens when you read my responses. Does frustration, anger, fear, disappointment, resistance appear?
I feel frustrated because I know things to be the way you say, but I don´t experience them that way. I am trying to understand but my mind just goes blank. I suppose that mind cannot understand these things.

There is a little bit of anger and fear too, because I have been suffering so long and part of me feels that I need to be "healed" from bad thoughts first before I can let them go. If thoughts aren´t that important then my suffering is not that important either. It has been a big part of my personality structure. I thought that I want to be rid of it but in my own way :)

Bluecat

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:22 am

Hello Bluecat,

When fear, resistance or anger appear intensely, please let me know so that we can look at them together.
Let me know what happens when you read my responses. Does frustration, anger, fear, disappointment, resistance appear?
I feel frustrated because I know things to be the way you say, but I don´t experience them that way. I am trying to understand but my mind just goes blank. I suppose that mind cannot understand these things.
No such thing as a 'mind'!

The label ‘frustrated’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of frustration
The sensation labelled ‘frustration’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of frustration.
The image labelled ‘body/I/me’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of someone frustrated.
The thoughts about what frustration is, and the story appearing that is seemingly creating the frustration is the AE of thought and not the AE of frustration.

In actual experience what is appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT frustration, but frustration is not known. Can a label, sensation, colour or thought become frustrated? Does colour or sensation suggest in any way that they are frustrated or know anything about being frustrated?
There is a little bit of anger and fear too, because I have been suffering so long and part of me feels that I need to be "healed" from bad thoughts first before I can let them go. If thoughts aren´t that important then my suffering is not that important either. It has been a big part of my personality structure. I thought that I want to be rid of it but in my own way :)
In order for it to be true that you shouldn't be feeling this, there would need to be a you!

Where the word ‘frustrated’ was used above, you can replace it with the word ‘suffering’ and do the same breakdown into AE ie, what actually is as opposed to what thought says is.

Okay, so let’s begin to become aware of actual experience (AE)

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.


Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Throughout our exploration, what is highlighted in blue text is what I would like you to answer please. Don't forget to use the quote function.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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bluecat18
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:16 am

Hi Kay,

will tell you if intensive feelings arise. Some feelings do rise and fall but nothing significant.
Is there really an 'apple' here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT 'apple'?
No there is a picture of an apple. Thoughts make up story based on colour and a shape on a screen.
Can 'apple' be found in actual experience?
When I look at an apple I see the colour red in different shades depending on the light. I see a round shape. Thoughts arise about it: how it would taste and memories concerning apples. When I touch the apple, I can feel smoothness of the peel. Thoughts label this as a good feeling. I smell this sweet smell and taste something that thoughts tell me is an apple. But I cannot find an apple anywhere in actual experience. Only combination of sensations.

However, is an apple actually known?
No, I am experiencing either raw sensations or my thoughts about the apple.

I was wondering what is the difference between a label and a thought in your use of words?

Bluecat

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:53 am

Hey Bluecat,
Is there really an 'apple' here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT 'apple'?
No there is a picture of an apple. Thoughts make up story based on colour and a shape on a screen.
Be it a picture of an apple or a 'real' apple, is there really an apple or only colour and thought about apple?

Without thought, how would it be known that the colour labelled ‘apple’ has a shape?

Can 'apple' be found in actual experience?
When I look at an apple I see the colour red in different shades depending on the light. I see a round shape. Thoughts arise about it: how it would taste and memories concerning apples. When I touch the apple, I can feel smoothness of the peel. Thoughts label this as a good feeling. I smell this sweet smell and taste something that thoughts tell me is an apple. But I cannot find an apple anywhere in actual experience. Only combination of sensations.
Yes, only a combination of experiences. So there is no confusion, please make sure that you don’t lump sound, thought, sensation, taste, smell and colour under the one word ‘sensation’. Sensation is the actual experience of sensation that is felt in and of the body.
However, is an apple actually known?
No, I am experiencing either raw sensations or my thoughts about the apple.
Yes, so sensation is known and thought is known, but an apple is not actually known.
I was wondering what is the difference between a label and a thought in your use of words?
There is no difference between a thought and a label, they are interchangeable and are AE of thought

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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bluecat18
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:20 am

Hi Kay,
There is no difference between a thought and a label, they are interchangeable and are AE of thought
Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Is there really an 'apple' here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT 'apple'?
No there is a picture of an apple. Thoughts make up story based on colour and a shape on a screen.
Be it a picture of an apple or a 'real' apple, is there really an apple or only colour and thought about apple?
There is not an apple, I see only colour and thoughts tell me it is an apple.
Without thought, how would it be known that the colour labelled 'apple' has a shape?
There are just different colours, shape is a thought. This was mind blowing to see.


Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.


Drinking tea. Seeing the cup on the table. Different colours, thought arises, where is the end of the cup and the beginning of the table? Touching a cup it feels warm in my cold hands. Thought says that it feels nice. Smell and taste of tea, thought says they are not as good as yesterday. Drinking tea, sensations in the body tea warming as it goes into the body. Thoughts come that this exercise is boring and useless that I've been drinking tea all my life what`s the big deal. I should be doing/thinking something more important.

Going to bed. Feeling sensations in in the body. Skin touching sheets, breathing happening. Hearing air conditioning and the sound of breathing. Seeing darkness behind closed eyelids. Feeling pressure in the chest area, thoughts label this as anxiety and a bad thing. I get a feeling that something bad is going to happen if I continue sensing this way.

Did this exercise every time I remembered during my day. Many times, this tension in my chest stopped me. I have been experiencing same anxiety for at least a year now. It gets worse if I try to meditate. It feels as something wants me to continue being busy with my thoughts.

Bluecat

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:49 am

Hello Bluecat,
Without thought, how would it be known that the colour labelled 'apple' has a shape?
There are just different colours, shape is a thought. This was mind blowing to see.
Nice looking! Yes, shapes are just different patterns of colour. Get used of the mind blowing lol.
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
Did this exercise every time I remembered during my day. Many times, this tension in my chest stopped me. I have been experiencing same anxiety for at least a year now. It gets worse if I try to meditate. It feels as something wants me to continue being busy with my thoughts.
Thoughts are funny, we will give them something more important things to thinks about, not that thoughts can think! ;)

Does this ‘feeling’ that “as something wants me to continue being busy with my thoughts” have an actual sensation in the body?

Keep doing this exercise for the next few days so that you are clear on what is AE and what is a thought story about AE. Thought either points to AE or it points to further thought.


Let’s look at ‘anxiety’.

The label ‘anxiety’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of anxiety
The sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of anxiety
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of anxiety
The thoughts ABOUT anxiety are AE of thought and not AE of anxiety.

So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?

When ‘anxiety’ appears, close your eyes and do the following:

1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about ‘anxiety’, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?

2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the anxious self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation that can be ‘anxious’.

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious, as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.
Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is anxious.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate step above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

Let me know how you go.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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bluecat18
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:32 pm

Hi Kay,

these exercises make me feel little uncomfortable, but I think that it´s a part of the came :)
Does this 'feeling' that "as something wants me to continue being busy with my thoughts" have an actual sensation in the body?
It is a sensation labeled as restlessness or unease. There is a prickling sensation throughout the body and pressure around the head and chest. Those feeling are unpleasant so I want to move away from them.

So, is there actual experience of 'anxiety' or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?
I cannot find anxiety. There is sensations in the body (colour) and thoughts about anxiety.
Let me know how you go.
As I sat with "anxiety" I didn´t find anyone that was anxious. The word anxiety is just letters , does not know anything. I found tightness in the chest area that did not know anything about anxiousness. The body knows nothing about anxiousness, it just is. There still is a feeling that this tightness belongs to "me" and "I" need to get rid of it. But I cannot find this "I" anywhere. The tightness moved around a little bit but did not dissipate.

I keep doing the exercises.

Bluecat

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:48 am

Hey Bluecat,

I just loved, loved your post. The clarity you have of sensations is great.
these exercises make me feel little uncomfortable, but I think that it´s a part of the came :)
Yep, all sorts of emotions will appear throughout this exploration.

What is the AE of emotions?
Does this 'feeling' that "as something wants me to continue being busy with my thoughts" have an actual sensation in the body?
It is a sensation labeled as restlessness or unease. There is a prickling sensation throughout the body and pressure around the head and chest. Those feeling are unpleasant so I want to move away from them.
GREAT! Nice looking to see what is going on.

So now, you can do the ‘anxiety’ exercise, and replace the word ‘anxiety’ with “restlessness” and “unease”.
Let me know how you go and what you find please.

So, is there actual experience of 'anxiety' or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?
I cannot find anxiety. There is sensations in the body (colour) and thoughts about anxiety.
Nice!
Let me know how you go.
As I sat with "anxiety" I didn´t find anyone that was anxious. The word anxiety is just letters , does not know anything. I found tightness in the chest area that did not know anything about anxiousness. The body knows nothing about anxiousness, it just is. There still is a feeling that this tightness belongs to "me" and "I" need to get rid of it. But I cannot find this "I" anywhere. The tightness moved around a little bit but did not dissipate.
Terrific, Bluecat, nice job! The point of the LOOKING is to see what actually IS as opposed to what thought says is appearing/happening. The point of LOOKING is not to get rid of anything, it is not to get rid of the sensations or the thoughts etc, but to see what IS, and when seeing what IS, (ie AE) then everything can be left as it is.

Since no "I" can be found in the LOOKING, can these 'things' ie sensations etc be happening to a 'me'?

This is how I want you to continue to LOOK for this “I” that thought keeps pointing to. It is by LOOKING and seeing that nothing can be found, other than the actual experience that is appearing, that the realisation happens.
I keep doing the exercises.
Yes, that is a great idea! :)

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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bluecat18
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Re: Ready to wake up

Postby bluecat18 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:55 pm

Hi Kay,
I just loved, loved your post. The clarity you have of sensations is great.
Thank you for your encouraging words. I don't feel clear at all ;) At the time of the looking things are clear and simple, but right after conflicting thoughts arise.
What is the AE of emotions?
Thoughts arose and because of them came a feeling of sadness. In the chest area went a surge of energy upwards and tears came in my eyes. Then it just disappeared. So, AE of emotions is thoughts and bodily sensations.
So now, you can do the 'anxiety' exercise, and replace the word 'anxiety' with "restlessness" and "unease".
Let me know how you go and what you find please.
Looking at restlessness:
The word restlessness is just letters it doesn't know anything about restlessness. It is not restless and there is no one there. There is sensation in the stomach, it doesn't know anything about restlessness it just is. The sensation is not the restless self. There is no one around that is restless. The body knows nothing about restlessness. Cannot find anyone that is restless. Actually, it seems quite ridiculous to assume that a sensation in the body would be owned by someone.
The point of LOOKING is not to get rid of anything, it is not to get rid of the sensations or the thoughts etc, but to see what IS, and when seeing what IS, (ie AE) then everything can be left as it is.
This was seen quite clearly when I was looking at restlessness. I could just observe the sensation and let it be or leave.
Since no "I" can be found in the LOOKING, can these 'things' ie sensations etc be happening to a 'me'?
No they are just happening. The I/me is a label. Although by looking I get these answers, I am still not sure about this.

Bluecat


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