Knowingness

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Nur
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Knowingness

Postby Nur » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:13 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
One thing going on whatever is as it is what can I say more to explain just one functioning we are that in fact not right to say we too ( this is not my first language forgive me this short answer) thanks

What are you looking for at LU?
Cut off lasts roots I saw many people did with you I listen read your book whatever I found it was so helpfull but something inside of me pushing me to here over and over again and I listen it that is why I am writing now.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Actually I do not know I want to follow forums your words can make me stable in it ( some time confusing take me over I know I have to solve this difficulty by my self but I need help looks like) thanks.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Last ten years I meditating 2 years was TM and last few years Adyashanti Rupert Spira Wei Wu Wei Goran Backlund much more and retreat with Adyashanti.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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otterrivers
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Re: Knowingness

Postby otterrivers » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:54 pm

Hello. I see you've been waiting over a week. We apologize for that. There are more clients than guides at the moment so unfortunately some people have to wait longer than we would like. Thanks for being patient.

I will be the one working with you here. My name is otter. I'll call you "knowing" if that's ok with you. The less we are concerned with personal details such as name and location and age and gender; the better. For now. There's nothing wrong with those but for now, those details won't be needed and could possibly even get in the way.

I welcome you sincerely from the heart and I'm very glad you are here wanting to investigate this!

I'm assuming you've read everything in the "read this first" link? If not, please do before we start.

If you have any other questions or concerns before we start please feel free to ask me.

But in order to save time I'll assume for now that you are ready to start and I'll begin with a question:

What comes up when I say -- there is no separate entity self in real life at all. No manager, witness, experiencer as a independent entity in charge? ( in all kinds of variations)

Please report from experience: what comes up, what feelings, thoughts, emotions and/or body sensations show up immediately upon letting this idea in?

Please don't feel a need to rush your answer. Take your time and really ask yourself this over and over. Maybe once an hour for a minute or so. Do this at least a few times before you respond. No rush necessary. I am sometimes not available to respond every single day but I will usually respond within 24hrs.

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:59 am

Thank you, shairing time with me
First I have to say that this is not my first language it makes me little hassitate
If something goes wrong pleace forgive me and. Thanks all who does these great jobs here
I will answer your questions after little while

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:29 am

Thank you, shairing time with me
First I have to say that this is not my first language it makes me little hassitate
If something goes wrong pleace forgive me and. Thanks all who does these great jobs here

First I experienced it, I don't remember much details it was about a year ago, but it hurt especially when I was thinking about my grandchildren and my children
But it gradually disolved in wonderful emptiness and love my sense of self almost slipped away
Recently I feel like it was always like this we never existed there was no possibility to be exist

Have many good times
Nur

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otterrivers
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Re: Knowingness

Postby otterrivers » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:17 pm

Hello.

I wanted to suggest one more thing I forgot before. It is a good idea to write your response in a separate program like "word pad" or "note pad" and then copy it to the forum. That's how I do it. I have several times experienced website errors or sometimes I've accidentally touched a wrong button and lost my whole response. :). I want to save you from that frustration of having to type the whole thing again. Haha.

Yes I guessed from your writing that English isn't your first language but It seems like our best option since I don't speak any other language well enough to communicate as well as we are doing here. I think you are doing a really good job. It doesn't need to be perfect. So far I haven't had any problem understanding. And we are fortunate that this subject is very simple. If you have understood me so far, then there should be no problem. And if you ever have trouble understanding me I am perfectly happy to clarify my meaning. :).

Ok I have read your answer. I have two questions in response:

I can see we don't have to spend too much time doing exercises to show you there is no real ego self. No personal self in reality with a separate life. If you listen to lots of Rupert Spira and adyashanti and you have no problem with what they are saying then we can move past that. If it seems needed we can revisit that later.

Also you seem to have moved past any heavy negative emotional reactions like fear and pain and loss and anger. If these emotions of resistance arise again we will take care of those later too. So my questions are:

1- You say that confusion still sometimes takes over and that you want to cut off last roots. What are these roots? Please describe the situation as you see it, what problems remain that you seek freedom from and what is the confusion that takes over?

2- What is noticing all of this? What stays the same when you are lost in confusion and when you are feeling free from separate identity?

Please answer both questions from your own direct seeing. Pretend you have never read anything before. Forget anything you've learned and answer as if this is the first time you were ever asked. It will be very beneficial for you to remain as if you were a little child who never learned anything about self or religion or science or anything at all.

And again, please take your time with your answer. Ask yourself these questions at least a few times. The best way is to ask yourself these questions for a few minutes and see what arises as response. Then take a break and come back to it again and again over a period of at least a few hours. And then when you do respond, just write whatever comes out with very little editing. Do not try to say the "right answer". I won't be responding for about 24 hours more so you have plenty of time. No rush.

(Again, please let me know if anything I said is difficult to understand. I will be happy to explain)

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:08 am

Dear friend.

1. Ans. Confusion was the wrong word I used actually. Let say curiosity became overwhelmed
Curiosity was that, it was not aweke during the sleep this is why I register to LU
Last night was amazing. After I wrote and posted to you, there was great relaxing kind a contemplation meditation form
I ask my self, whom is going to get answer or help all about that if you don't have a self. Who is going to answer your question he or she does not have self too. This is going to be nonexist conversation (I started to laughing couldn't stop) if I say I don't have self I don't need answer too.
I felt like dancing playing with the mind and I miss the point (last six months I was watching the mind very close actually I enjoy to that it was like a kid) mind created question and answering person.
Amaizing noticing I was not part of game even playing in it laughing laughing so much
Still laughing to night still I like to know
Some way your text help me go much more deeper 🙏😂

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:38 am

2. Ans.
Hard to explain this question I do my best
There is silence and stillness prior to the mind. It is wast and has loving quality like dark night sky
Its radiance is knowingness and aliveness I can not say that it is noticing all these but it is itself noticing
Home forever
Thanks your kind 🙏

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otterrivers
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Re: Knowingness

Postby otterrivers » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:26 am

So that awareness and knowingness and aliveness that is the same when you are feeling free and when you are feeling lost... Is it still happening now? Was there a time when it was not happening?

Even when you are asleep, is it gone? Here is a way to possibly help understand that:(this is only a suggestion. A way of trying to describe it with words. I'm not telling you this to teach you. Only suggesting and you can test it and see if it is true in experience.)

There is always this open peaceful awareness. When you are awake there is "awareness of". There is awareness of sensations and Awareness of thoughts.

And when you are in dreamless sleep there is no "awareness of". Only "awareness." This awareness is that same loving peaceful happiness that you describe. Which could explain why we feel such bliss when we are falling asleep or waking up sometimes. And it might explain why we need sleep to stay healthy and recharge.

Mostly we try to only use exercises so that you can discover for yourself what is true. but this time I feel it's ok to maybe explain something to you. But I want to be sure to add that I don't want you to accept what I say about it. Again, it is meant as a suggestion for you to explore and see if it seems correct or not for you. Maybe that will help with that sense of confusion on this subject. Or if you want to talk about that more we can explore that question until you are satisfied with the answer you find.

Also; I have two questions.
1- you say you want to cut off last roots. What are those roots that should be cut? Please give a few examples from your recent life experience and describe to me what are these last roots you want to cut.

2- it these last roots were cut, what do you think would change?
How will you know when you are finished cutting the last roots?

You're doing very good. I appreciate that you are answering from your own experience and not quoting any teaching or teacher. They are just fine of course. But I'm sure you already understand that you must drop everything you know and answer from your immediate experience. I hope you are not having difficulty understanding me. Sometimes I forget to be careful how I type. But so far you seem to be answering me very well.

Again, please take a lot of time with these questions and don't use an answer you already know. Pretend you never thought of these things before and ask yourself again like it's the first time.
I know I said this twice before and I'll only say it this last time. From now on I will assume you already know this is how I want you to answer.

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:14 am

Hi, Dear Otter
Your first question's answer: subject was cutting of the roots.
I am silent, stillness emptiness and the same time one with life no doubt about that never comes or never goes
But in the extremes or unexpected some happens Nur shows up for some time, my aware being not immediately but some while become aware of this. During this lost time I don't move with truth another way to say I move by which I am not that
That was the last roots I mean.

Your second question: Actually nothing is going to change it was a silly question I asked. Nothing need to touch whatever is it is wonderful as it is right now. Even with this confusion it is one with all
Every aspects of my life changed last one year gradually, how I see (experience is much more true word) the things now very different from before. Contentment flowing life becames softer lighter easy
I did my best last 4-5 days lucky I was alone at my home I did not work too I investigated deeply considered your advice carefully like a retreat I enjoyed . This dialogue with you caused much more clarity I remembered one more time there was no separation we all free any circumstances surely deeply
I want to say big thanks to you big hug to you. And still I can say God Bless you🙏

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otterrivers
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Re: Knowingness

Postby otterrivers » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:09 am

Can you explain exactly what you mean when you say "nur shows up sometimes"? I know that is your name but what do you mean when you say that still shows up?

Also I would like you to answer with specific examples from your recent life this time. Please tell me two recent incidences where you found that your last roots were a bit of a problem when but showed up.

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:28 am

Hi, Otter
Thank you for your time for me
I mean by Nur shows up: how was the life experience before this understanding "shows up"
I ment by still shows up: there is times still forgetting,happens
Last part of your response: you ask me some specifics examples. These can be, I heard my dear friend has got bad cancer, my loved ones surprise visited during I was working or I have to stay out side during cold weather
I am not trying to say I have to be non respons all this I am saying that during these happening I couldn't move all the way with this understanding (effortslessly there) Time to time I forget
This puts out that, there are roots
This question disolved last days with you I really investigate deeply deeply in the silence. Forgetting didn't disrepair but my response to it less and less very light
There is a "ok" feeling to it takes some time
Last night I was sitting silently question pop up "what about if you never know this understanding"
I am so grateful all teachers and teaching They point out. Thanks again and again 🙏

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otterrivers
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Re: Knowingness

Postby otterrivers » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:50 am

Hello. Thank you for beig patient as I am often late replying to you.
I was a little busy and also I wanted to make sure I could take the time to really read what you wrote and not respond right away so I could respond more deeply.

I understand your "last roots" now. I had assumed that is what you meant before but I wanted to make sure you said it yourself.

This is not the normal way we usually do this but I have an intuition that this is a good thing for me to say right now. I have the feeling that where you are at now, this will be good for me to talk about. As I said before, the best way for us to work here is for me to ask you questions and give you exercises for your direct experience instead of telling you answers.

And this may be an answer or I might be incorrect. So please use your own wisdom and investigate this rather than accepting it as a fact. I believe this may help at this point we are at in the conversation. So I will suggest this for you to meditate on for a while and tell me if it is true yourself. Please look for any problems with this and confirm it or argue anything you see wrong about it.

if you see for yourself that "who I am" is a simple illusion it is very profound. I believe you know that already. But what is the result of this? Is it a beginning or an end? Or maybe the beginning of the end?

Somehow (we will look at "how" later too) you have learned the illusion that you are an individual. a "me. Myself". A "This but not that". This illusion maybe allowed you to feel some protection but of course it also includes the illusion that there is much to be protected from and that it is very much bigger and independent of you. You seem to be a little hero or villain in a world that is much bigger and separate from what you.

Much of what we learn can be as a result of fear and become deeply rooted and associated with survival just like a need for food. We learn what is "me" (safe. Known. Under my control) and what is "not me " (possibly dangerous. Unknown. Not controlled by me). Much of what we learn and repeat can seem to become an unconscious automatic response. Even if we see that this self is an illusion, it might loosen the illusion and give some relief but the illusion can still appear real in a slightly expanded form.

Maybe it is no longer "little me in a dangerous world" maybe it is now "big me in a little world" or even "I am consciousness and the world is not real" which still has that basic illusion of "me in a world"

Some might have the illusion loosen or weaken and it crumbles completely after that. Some may need to keep loosening and loosening it a little at a time. And after there is absolutely no illusion that you are anything, does this immediately remove any seemingly unconscious learned habits?
Does this happen to everyone immediately when they stop believing this illusion?

Imagine a closet that has a lot of things thrown into it and forgotten about. A mix of good things we want to save and bad things we wanted to hide. And it starts to smell bad and causes other problems we don't like. And when the closet was too full we closed the door and locked it to keep everything in there from falling out. And that door is "me - This/not that" identity.

Now imagine that door is opened or breaks off. Some of the old items in the closet are guaranteed to fall out. Maybe for some people everything falls out at the same time. Maybe some people wait a while and the rest falls out maybe some people just need to poke it with a stick or kick it to make more things fall out. And maybe some people have to go in and remove things one at a time.

This is not a perfect metaphor. Don't take it too literally. But it's just a little story to explain how seeing throug the illusion of "me" isn't necessarily the end of every illusion which causes unhappiness. It is definitely the main illusion that holds all the other ones in place. So some people call it "the gate" or "stream entry" or "the beginning of the end". But that's not true for everyone either. It depends upon how your items were stacked in the closet which can vary depending on the life story. There's no need to label it and say how it should happen with everyone.

I only explain all that that to get it out of the way though. What we are concerned about here is seeing through the illusion of separate being. Not about what results should happen. Our work here is "have you seen this?" And helping to remove all doubts that you have truly seen it for yourself.

The suffering caused by believing this illusion can be a great motivation for investigating it. But don't think of it as a technique to attain a goal. Lets just focus upon the illusion. What it is. How it happened, and what the truth actually is. Maybe there will be more work needed after this to relief from more subtle illusions that haven't dissolved afterward. But I feel that suggesting all of this to you may do a lot of work already in bringing that relief.

No questions this time. Please read that several times over the next day or more and feel it deeply. Behind the words. 💛

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:42 am

Hi, Friend
I am late to respond but I was busy recently I read your text carefully and contemplate. And I decided to write to you my recent experiences let say last six mounts to right this moment. I am not good about editing text It takes long time from me with my language condition that's why I decided to write what ever this moment comes. I really glad to be here with you since I start I fell more stable, thank a lot. I never talk this part of my life anybody else even my meditation group. Very hard subject to talk about for me any way I will try my best here. I will read some your text, and I will write some thing which I feel to say at that moment. This can be easiest for me, after contemplation what ever comes it can be repeated before I said but I don't want to put my self thinking hard position.
I know my self wh I am without what is it. It is kind of such ness so ness.this is same for everybody and everything another words to say I don't know what I am but intuition says, something there knows. Behind and between the mind there is aliveness in the radiant dark Sometime I have wonder about this and I say my self we all missing one more sense organ could be there to percive it
There are no beginning and end. It was my first big experience or insight, that many day I was in shock millions of years (time) I saw one moment one flash there was no doubt in me. It was right and clear knowing like my gender about 2 years ago. But same time I know any experience out side or inside not the reality after few days I stopped thinking about it I just let stay its feeling hanging there effortlessly. There was no in side and out side
Your saying about little me trying to be some thing, I know very clearly me is imagined floating thought never can be truth it is not separate from it same subtens just different is coming and going

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Nur
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Re: Knowingness

Postby Nur » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:41 am

And moving changing
When I apply to LU it was not separate me or union me etc. I just wrote with my heart at that moment there was desire to join and read rest of your great discussions and of course ask sleeping and the last root question as a matter of fact like two question but just one question
I am so glad I did it one more time checked out all the way down
Last days I don't notice my understanding often naturally "noticing" dropping away but it is it self there all the time like back to the regular life but never like before I am free to carry "noticing" there or not I don't mind
Thanks again 🙏

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otterrivers
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Re: Knowingness

Postby otterrivers » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:09 pm

Hi. I can't respond fully right now but I wanted to let you know I'm still here. As you can see I'm not always able to respond promptly either so please don't worry if you also take a long time to reply. I will read your answer and think about it for a while and respond when it is more convenient. It seems like that is ok with you too but please let me know if you feel it is taking too long and would like to work with someone who is available to respond more often. But really there is no great hurry. There is no trophy at the finish line. 😎. And it is sometimes better not to answer right away so that we can have a lot of time to consider our responses.


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