Getting to the heart of things

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:38 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The idea of a self is generated by the mind. It's a convenience to refer to one's self as a separate entity in conversation, however, things get out of hand and over time the idea of a separate self grows until it's accepted as fact. The idea is to clean the slate and view things unimpeded by mental clutter and stories.

What are you looking for at LU?
The goal is to get to that point where I know there is no duality, for certain. Finally would like to be able to clearly see situations for what they are and not attach a story to people, situations, or myself.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Expectations would be that the guide would prod me along in such a way that I'm able to gain understanding into eliminating the idea of a separate self. This understanding would assist in the process of removing the idea of duality.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've read about the advaita and dzogchen teachings. I've listened to the Eckhart Tolle books. I've read many transcripts from the LU site trying to get through the gateless gate.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5657
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:11 am

Hello NM,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This exploration uses experiential exercises and pointed questions so that you can LOOK and find the answers for yourself. This is not about discovering what you are. It is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get this party started! :)

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:44 am

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get this party started! :)
Yes, I've read the disclaimer and what LU is not, along with the how to on quotes. Looking forward to getting started, after listening to the LU podcasts and reading most of Gateless Gatecrashers the prospect of awaking to no-self is exciting!

With Love,
Todd

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5657
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:24 am

Hey Todd,

Nice to meet you! Thank you confirming that you have read the disclaimer and for reading the links and for using the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual Experience (AE) refers to your current experience ‘right now,’ without the labels and thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple noticing of thought at face value.When looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:59 pm

Kay,

Thanks for taking the time to do this!!
How will life change?

Life should be easier. There should be less drag from carrying around stories about others, situations, and myself.
How will you change?
I should be able to perceive reality more clearly.
What will be different?
Reality will not be seen through the lens of 'myself'.
What is missing?
Taking that step where the idea of 'myself' no longer seems reasonable.

With Love,
Todd

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5657
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:01 am

Hey Todd,
Thanks for taking the time to do this!!
My pleasure.
How will life change?
Life should be easier. There should be less drag from carrying around stories about others, situations, and myself.
There is no one living life, life is simply lifing. Thoughts appear that say “there should be less drag from carrying around stories about others, situations, and myself”, however, thoughts are just an appearance that arise and subside and in and of themselves have no meaning.
How will you change?
I should be able to perceive reality more clearly.
A lot of ‘shoulds’ in your answers. Shoulds points to beliefs, although beliefs are just simply thoughts that are labelled as ‘beliefs’. Yes, perception changes subtly.
What will be different?
Reality will not be seen through the lens of 'myself'.
There has never been a separate self to see reality through a ‘myself’. Everything is always clearly seen, it is only an appearing thought that says reality is not seen clearly. Reality always has been and always IS.

You wrote the following in your introduction:-
What are you looking for at LU?
The goal is to get to that point where I know there is no duality, for certain. Finally would like to be able to clearly see situations for what they are and not attach a story to people, situations, or myself.
There are no goals. Liberation already IS.

This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through, however, and like rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Expectations would be that the guide would prod me along in such a way that I'm able to gain understanding into eliminating the idea of a separate self. This understanding would assist in the process of removing the idea of duality.
Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

An expectation is nothing more than a mental construct. Two notions appear comparing the current experience to each notion. One notion is labelled as “this is liberation” and the other notion is labelled “this is not liberation”. Expectations are a hindrance to this exploration and are great to be aware of, but need to be put aside.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:34 pm

Kay,

Looks like the direct pointing has started! :)
There is no one living life, life is simply lifing. Thoughts appear that say “there should be less drag from carrying around stories about others, situations, and myself”, however, thoughts are just an appearance that arise and subside and in and of themselves have no meaning.
Indeed. Agree 100%. What I was trying to express was that sometimes thoughts are sticky and do not 'move on' as easily as others. Sometimes these sticky thoughts seem to have a life of their own and can cause unnecessary drama, even after the event (thought) has passed in the chronological stream. The point here would be to realize there's no one living life? So the thoughts will still be sticky, it's just that they'll have nothing to 'stick' to, making them just like any other thought?
There has never been a separate self to see reality through a ‘myself’. Everything is always clearly seen, it is only an appearing thought that says reality is not seen clearly. Reality always has been and always IS.

The person that coined the phrase, 'It is what it is' must have had this in mind. :)
There are no goals. Liberation already IS.
This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through, however, and like rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
Cool. A part of me was worried that a big hit could happen and I would become a zombie staring off into space!
Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

An expectation is nothing more than a mental construct. Two notions appear comparing the current experience to each notion. One notion is labelled as “this is liberation” and the other notion is labelled “this is not liberation”. Expectations are a hindrance to this exploration and are great to be aware of, but need to be put aside.

Ok.

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5657
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:08 am

Hey Todd,
There is no one living life, life is simply lifing. Thoughts appear that say “there should be less drag from carrying around stories about others, situations, and myself”, however, thoughts are just an appearance that arise and subside and in and of themselves have no meaning.
Indeed. Agree 100%. What I was trying to express was that sometimes thoughts are sticky and do not 'move on' as easily as others. Sometimes these sticky thoughts seem to have a life of their own and can cause unnecessary drama, even after the event (thought) has passed in the chronological stream. The point here would be to realize there's no one living life? So the thoughts will still be sticky, it's just that they'll have nothing to 'stick' to, making them just like any other thought?
They are simply thoughts that arise and subside. It is only another thought that says that there are some thoughts that stick and some don’t. A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything whatsoever. Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing in in/as experience. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought. We will be looking at thoughts more indepth shortly.
There are no goals. Liberation already IS.
This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through, however, and like rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
Cool. A part of me was worried that a big hit could happen and I would become a zombie staring off into space!
LOL….no we don’t do free lobotomies at LU! ;)

Okay, so let’s begin! And we begin by becoming aware of actual experience (AE).

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.


Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Throughout our exploration, what is highlighted in blue text is what I would like you to answer please. Don't forget to use the quote function.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:29 am

Kay,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Used as a general term, no. Apple would refer to the idea of an apple, just a thought.
However, is an apple actually known?
Yes. The specific apple sitting on my desk is known. I can feel, smell, taste it.

Thanks for your time!

With Love,
Todd

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5657
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:00 am

Hey Todd,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Used as a general term, no. Apple would refer to the idea of an apple, just a thought.
We are not looking at generalities. We are looking at actual experience.

Can an apple, whether it be a picture of an apple of a ‘real’ apple, be found in actual experience?
However, is an apple actually known?
Yes. The specific apple sitting on my desk is known. I can feel, smell, taste it.
I want you to look carefully here. Becoming aware of actual experience if the foundation of this investigation. So I would take my time and have a good look and then reanswer the question.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:58 am

We are not looking at generalities. We are looking at actual experience.

Can an apple, whether it be a picture of an apple of a ‘real’ apple, be found in actual experience?
Tasting, feeling, seeing the apple are all experiences that are representative of an apple. These are actual experiences. These experiences add up to finding an apple in actual experience.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
Apple is a label that can not be known. Apple describes something that can only be known through actual experience of the senses. An apple by itself is not known, just sensory perceptions that make up an apple. You can't feel an apple, however, you can feel a round object. You can't taste an apple, however, you can taste sweetness. You can't see an apple, however, you can see red.

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5657
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:58 am

Hi Todd,
Can an apple, whether it be a picture of an apple of a ‘real’ apple, be found in actual experience?
Tasting, feeling, seeing the apple are all experiences that are representative of an apple. These are actual experiences. These experiences add up to finding an apple in actual experience.

Actual experience is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If thought contained experience then you would be able to taste the thought/word ‘sweet’.

Without thought, how would it be known that the colour/shape is red or green and that it is round and is an apple?
Without thought how would it be known that the taste, smell and sound were that of an apple?
Without thought, how would it be known that the sensation (touch) is a round hard object?

The label ‘apple’ is AE of thought and not the AE of an apple
The taste labelled ‘apple’ is AE of taste and not AE of an apple
The smell labelled ‘apple’ is AE of smell and not AE of an apple
The sound (crunch) labelled as ‘apple’ is AE of sound and not AE of an apple
The image labelled as ‘apple’ is AE of colour and not AE of an apple
The sensation labelled ‘round hard object’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a round hard object ie apple.
The thought about an apple are AE of thought and not the AE of an apple

So in actual experience what is actually appearing is label + taste + smell + sound + colour + sensation + thoughts ABOUT all of these being an apple. But NO actual apple can be found. Can you see this?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 am

Kay,
Without thought, how would it be known that the colour/shape is red or green and that it is round and is an apple?
It would be known that it is red or green by looking at it and round by touching it. Knowing it is an apple...no thought is required...it's like a reflex. Kinda like when you put your hand on a hot pot and the hand pulls away without thinking.
Without thought how would it be known that the taste, smell and sound were that of an apple?
It would be known that it is an apple by tasting it and knowing that is what an apple tastes like. Same goes for smelling and biting into it to hear the sound. Apples have a distinctive taste, smell and sound that needs no contemplative effort, determining that it's an apple is the sum of all these sensory perceptions that are unique to an apple.
Without thought, how would it be known that the sensation (touch) is a round hard object?
It would be known that it is a round hard object by touching the apple and sensing the roundness and the hardness. Sensing these characteristics requires no thought, it's automatic.
So in actual experience what is actually appearing is label + taste + smell + sound + colour + sensation + thoughts ABOUT all of these being an apple. But NO actual apple can be found. Can you see this?

Apple is just a mental construct that is the sum of all the sensory experiences. The apple mental construct is separate from the sensory experiences. The sensory experiences are real. Apple is not real, it is Santa Claus!

With Love,
Todd

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5657
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:42 am

Hi Todd,
Without thought, how would it be known that the colour/shape is red or green and that it is round and is an apple?
It would be known that it is red or green by looking at it and round by touching it. Knowing it is an apple...no thought is required...it's like a reflex. Kinda like when you put your hand on a hot pot and the hand pulls away without thinking.
I want you to look at this as if you were a new born baby and you had never LEARNED a language, or if you find that difficult then pretend that you are deaf and you have never heard a language and you have never been taught to sign language.

Without thought, how would it be known that the colour/shape is red or green and that it is round and is an apple?

Without thought how would it be known that the taste, smell and sound were that of an apple?

Without thought, how would it be known that the sensation (touch) is a round hard object?



We will also try this in a different ways

Sit in a quiet room where noises from outside can be heard. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE noise that you hear when doing this?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
NMSeeker
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Getting to the heart of things

Postby NMSeeker » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:28 am

Without thought, how would it be known that the colour/shape is red or green and that it is round and is an apple?
Without thought how would it be known that the taste, smell and sound were that of an apple?
Without thought, how would it be known that the sensation (touch) is a round hard object?
It's impossible to know that it is an apple without thought. Apple is a mental construct that doesn't exist in the real world. Same goes for 'round hard object'.
Sit in a quiet room where noises from outside can be heard. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE noise that you hear when doing this?
Sound of a car driving by.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests