The truth

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Tuulikki
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 am

The truth

Postby Tuulikki » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:30 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
”I” can’t be found anywhere. ”I” is not my thoughts, body, past or feelings. There is no ”I” who is in control of what is happening in this life. Things are just happening by some one great consciousness,awareness, through us.

What are you looking for at LU?
To actually see and know the truth of how things really are in this life. I feel that I have waisted my life in looking for the feeling of oneness, the truth, in all the wrong places that have only made the ego happier. I have lived in the past and in the future but not in the present.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To have someone help me see that am I even close to the truth. And to really make me look and not just to think about all this with my head, because I have noticed my ego is really against all this. I have learned that the ego can fool you so easily and come through the back door.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have recently read the book ”Liberation unleashed, a guide to breaking free from the illusion of a separate self”. I have been seeking for about twenty years now, starting in my teens, for something ”greater” that runs everything. I ”knew” there was ”something”, did not know what, but I did not find it in any religions. Closest I got with ”nature, pagan religions” by trying to connect with nature but even that didnt seem to do ”it”. And also by reading buddhist texts and meditation. But I know now that they don’t help me see the truth.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:56 am

Hello Tuulikki. Welcome to LU. :)


I saw on your post that you want to see how things truly are.
I'd be glad to be your help.


First, we can start by clearly seeing that there is no "I" as an concrete, individual entity
that is separate from others.


If you're ready, please post here telling me what you think "you" are.


Looking forward to hearing from you!


Bananafish

User avatar
Tuulikki
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 am

Re: The truth

Postby Tuulikki » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:09 pm

Hi!
Thank you for your reply and for being my guide!
My spelling might not be always correct because i’m Finnish :)

Now what do I think ”I” am?

I used to think what most people probably do: I am the body, mind, past, believes, way of thinking, my likes and dislikes etc. I’m unique.
But not anymore, now that I got to know of this process of looking.
I understand that i’m not any of those things anymore. I can’t control how my body functions so how could I be my body? To me it’s something I sense this life through. I’m not my thoughts because I can’t control them in any way and they are not based on what is real and what is the truth. They are based on my believes I have learned from other people ovet the years. I am only aware of them and when I go along with them, believe them, I react to the emotions and feelings they raise. I, that ”I” always thought I was, is not real, it’s only ideas and believes, nothing real.

But then who is this ”I” who senses through this body and is aware of these thoughts? Pure awareness, consciousness, that’s what I believe. Everything is just one awareness, consciousness wich is expressing itself thru everything, including us, in different ways. That’s what makes sense to me. But thinking is not the way, right? I feel that I can’t get deep into this. ”I understand”, is thinking but how to really GET all of this? I feel that I have really looked and have felt IT for awhile and then i’m lost again.. So I think ”I” am lies, the untruth, just the ego but it’s hold is still so strong.
I hope this made any sense to you :)

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:02 pm

Hi Tuulikki. :) Good to hear from you.


As you've told in the post,
there's a huge difference between intellectual understanding and an experiential one,
and we must be careful not to mix them up.

this ”I” who senses through this body

Let's have a look at the above belief of yours.


Please touch the surface of your PC (smartphone, tablet)
and describe the process of sensing it. Observe.

Is what you call "pure awareness" really feeling it "through" the body?


After that, do the same experiment, but this time by looking at the display.

Is what you call "pure awareness" really seeing it "through" the eyes?
How can you know that?



Please take your time, and let me know whatever that dawns on you.

User avatar
Tuulikki
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 am

Re: The truth

Postby Tuulikki » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:18 pm

Hi!

Here are my answers:

”Please touch the surface of your PC and describe the process of sensing it. Observe.”

First there pops up words ”smooth, vibrating, cold”. Presure on the tips of my fingers.

”Is what you call ”pure awareness” really feeling it ”through” the body?”

It’s with these fingers that I feel those sensations. There is awareness of these sesnsations. Would I feel them without this body and it’s fingers? Would those sensations be in my awareness without my body? I dont’t think so. I believe (even though I know this isn’t matter of believing) that pure awareness is in everything. Something is sensing those things.”I” is just putting labels on those sensations; giving them specific meaning.

”After that, do the same experiment, but this time by looking st the display”

I see numbers, picture I took of a tree, writing, colors blue and black, bright light, too bright. Labeling is happening.

”Is what you call ”pure awareness” really seeing it ”through” the eyes? How can you know that?”

If I wouldn’t have these eyes, I wouldn’t see these things. Again, something is seeing those things, something is aware of those things. I call it just awareness. How can I know that? Well, I don’t, not for sure. I don’t know at all who is seeing. Or feeling.

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:58 am

Have you ever heard of "phantom limb"?
A person whose arm or leg has been amputated can still feel itch where his arm used to be.

Also, have you ever seen a dream? I'm sure you have. :). When dreaming, dreams are seen with the eyes closed, right?


Then, what is feeling this itch, and what is seeing a dream?

User avatar
Tuulikki
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 am

Re: The truth

Postby Tuulikki » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:09 pm

Yes, I have heard of a phantom limb and seen dreams :)

So ”what is feeling this itch and seeing a dream”?

I believe those are things created by the brain. Things that are rising from memories, subconsciousness. Not by ”me”. ”I” can’t control those things. But then again, I have been able to ”wake up” in a dream and make it end, and also see things with eyes closed when I visualize something, day dream intentionally.
So it seems that some things can be seen with the minds eye and some things with my actual eyes. Some things can be felt with the sense of touch and some sensations are craeted by the brain (like pain) and I also believe that sometimes you can feel things, like that phantom limb; on an energetic level.
I see I haven’t answerd the actual question! :) WHAT, is seeing a dream, feeling the itch...? I don’t really know..The dream is just seen. The itch is just felt. I can’t honestly name the one who sees or feels! This raised a question, when the dream is just seen, then who is the one who wants to wake up when it gets too scary?

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:47 pm

Hi Tuulikki. :)

when the dream is just seen, then who is the one who wants to wake up when it gets too scary?



That's a very good question, indeed!
Why don't you pursue it yourself?


Try to remember the last time when you felt scared (either in a dream or in reality),
and conjure up the feeling of fear.


Where in the body is it felt, and what kind of thoughts or images pop up,
following that sensation?

User avatar
Tuulikki
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 am

Re: The truth

Postby Tuulikki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:45 am

Hi again Bananafish :)

I tried to pursue my question ”when the dream is just seen, then who is the one who wants to wake up when it gets too scary?”
It is subconsciousness/ego that ”reminds” to be afraid when the anxiety gets to be too much. And anxiety? It comes from resisting. Dreams are not in my control. They are controlled by the same ”thing” that controls my awake time. The ego. Learned behaviour that lies in my subconsciousness.

”Try to remember the last time when you felt scared (either in a dream or in reality), and conjure up the feeling of fear”
”Where in the body is it felt, and what kind of thoughts or images pop up, following that sensation?”

It feels like time stops. All i see is that situation. I can’t think clearly. It’s felt in my gut, my heart pounding. Sometimes it feels like it’s going to cause a panic attack.

The reaction in my mind and body is so fast to what is happening that i just can’t control it, untill the situation ends.
I know that all those reactions to what is happening is just resisting what is happening and why the reaction comes so fast is because it’s learned so ”well” that the subconsciousness brings all that up immediately. I just can not get in between to what is happening and the reaction, and just see the situation neutral, for what it is.

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:30 am

Hiya!


Let's relax a bit. You don't have to try anything during this process.
But if you couldn't help trying, please don't bother, either.


Please write down the thoughts (however irrational, unclear they may be) as they appeared.
You don't have to remember all of them, but it will help if you can
write down at least a bit.


In the meantime, repeat the process and try to get
familiar with the feelings felt in the gut. Record the thoughts that rose.


The key is not to force yourself,
so, if you felt like taking a break at any time, pleased do so.


Be gentle, and be curious to see what's happening. :)

User avatar
Tuulikki
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 am

Re: The truth

Postby Tuulikki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:31 pm

Hi!

The last time i got scared, was on my early morning walk with my dogs. We were in the woods, it was pitch black, silent, no-one nowhere. I was really concentrated on a thing i found on the ground. And then, all of a sudden, comes this loud sound of something big jumping/moving really close to us. I have a really crappy headlight, so i could not really see anything. I had just seen footprints of a big dog or a wolf in the snow, no human footprints anywhere. So i connected the sound to a wolf or a big dog.

So the process: i heard the sound, empty mind for a couple seconds, then anxiety because i thought it is a wolf or a big dog; my gut jumps and sinks and tingels, my heart starts pounding, the second thought; we gotta get away from here, so it would’t hurt my dogs or me, and then panic, because it is probably following us, whatever it is. No other thoughts in mind, i’m not aware of anything else. When we get to the road, and i see no-one followed us, panic starts fading away and i can start thinking clearly again. I notice i was breathing fast. Heart still keeps pounding for some time. I feel at ease; how did i get scared like that? Only afterwords i realized how my body reacted to all of that.

Thinking about what happened, made my heart pound again and it changed my breathing. Gut was tingeling again, and there was tension in my stomach. Ears feel like they are humming. This process left my body in a jumpy state. And then thinking that those were just thoughts, helped my body to relax again, gut first, then breathing and heart last.
So just a thought can make the body react in a really intese way.
And, there was nothing to be afraid of; i made it all up, well not the sound but everything after that :)

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:29 pm

Wow, that must have been a real horror!


Here's my question:
the moment you felt that intense feeling, were you aware of yourself, or the brain,
or subconsciousness, that are supposed to be the ones who produced it?

Do any of the feelings need a subject (you, ego, brain, whatever way you call it)
that feels it, in order to be felt?




Now, a wee bit of experiment and observation:


Feel the breath coming in and going out of your nose.


Is that feeling separate from the one who feels it?
The very moment it is felt, are there two separate things; the feeler and the felt?


If so, where is the boundary between these two?

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:46 pm

how did i get scared like that? Only afterwords i realized how my body reacted to all of that.

A bit more of advice. Read carefully what you wrote.


Yes, it is always afterwards that you label the experience as yours, reaction, and body.
And the labels are not the experience itself.

Where are these things at the very moment you're experiencing fear?



Wasn't it like "!!!!!!", and nothing more? :)

User avatar
Tuulikki
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 am

Re: The truth

Postby Tuulikki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:25 pm

When i am experiencing fear, ”I” just ”am” and things are just happening. Those things wich i labeld weren’t really there then, and they weren’t really there afterwards either. My mind just had to make up a story of what had happened, story for the ”i”. And many times the story comes before anything happens! The ego needs to come up with those stories to keep the ”i” ”alive”.
Yeah, it was ”like” something happened! :)

Bananafish
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: The truth

Postby Bananafish » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:09 pm

Hi Tuulikki. :)

It sounds a bit like
you're hurrying to conclusions.

Please read the questions I post carefully,
as many times as you need, and
tell me if there's anything unclear
about the questions I ask.


Be careful and notice yourself
theorizing the result of the observation.


Did you do the breathing experiment?
Please take your time and report
what you found out.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests