Clearing

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FyodorFinder
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Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:35 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no doer doing things, there is just experience. Life is a verb, not a noun.

What are you looking for at LU? Clarity.
I feel like there is no self here, but at times there is doubt, or confusion, especially in relation to thoughts. Perhaps this has to do with expectations about the awake experience, or perhaps this is residual belief in self. I am curious about this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
More clarity, or, less doubt. Perhaps I will just accept this level of hesitation in saying there is no self.... However, I suspect it is possible to have this insight at a deeper level than currently experienced.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done Finders Course and don't believe I am a self. This is just happening. I suffered many years and then got into seeking for a year and found about a year ago. Well, lost is what really happened.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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JonathanR
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Re: Clearing

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:10 pm

Hi FyadorFinder,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon. I guide here and am willing to guide you, if you like?
. I feel like there is no self here, but at times there is doubt, or confusion, especially in relation to thoughts. Perhaps this has to do with expectations about the awake experience, or perhaps this is residual belief in self. I am curious about this.
This is interesting. We can certainly take a look at this Do you feel that there are expectations of an awake experience? Of what it should look or feel like?

You mention doubts. We can also inquire into those too.

Warm regards,

Jon

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FyodorFinder
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Re: Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am

Do you feel that there are expectations of an awake experience? Of what it should look or feel like?
I feel like there is plenty of narrative commentary about doing, story, and "my" relationship to the world. Yet intermingled with this is an ongoing awakening experience.

So, something here doesn't feel awake, and that is confusing. I spend a lot of my day seeking more of what I've already apparently "found" - or, lost. Perhaps this is only residual conditioning? Or does one need have to No Self insight multiple times for this feeling of self to fully drop away?

Perhaps I'm believing that all feeling of the separate self should drop away. Or that I need have this insight in another way.

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JonathanR
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Re: Clearing

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:11 pm

Hi F,
So, something here doesn't feel awake, and that is confusing. I spend a lot of my day seeking more of what I've already apparently "found" - or, lost. Perhaps this is only residual conditioning? Or does one need have to No Self insight multiple times for this feeling of self to fully drop away?
What would 'awake' feel like, or be like?

Would it be a particular kind of experience?

What is the 'something' that 'doesn't feel awake'?

Thank you,

Jon

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FyodorFinder
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Re: Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:58 pm

What would 'awake' feel like, or be like?
I suppose it can't be anything other than what is now. This.

I can't find something other than this, other than a THOUGHT that there can/should be more than this. Thought can seem to create a separate reality, but it's only a part of the whole, made of the whole. And it's just more thought that thinks this thought of separation might be right or real.
What is the 'something' that doesn't feel awake?
It can only be opinion. And opinion is thought. And then something reacts to that opinion thought - "Oh, yes, there must be more." But this too is just thought, posing as an apparent separate seeking something.

So, the something that doesn't feel awake is just thought. And the reaction to that thought that makes it feel real is just another thought.

And there can't be a separate thinker of these thoughts outside of awareness.

So it's CAN ONLY BE awakeness misidentified as unawakeness....

Then when does seeking stop?

Well, I suppose it doesn't have to. It just has to be recognized as awakeness in quotation marks.

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JonathanR
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Re: Clearing

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:15 pm

Hi F,
. Then when does seeking stop?

Well, I suppose it doesn't have to. It just has to be recognized as awakeness in quotation marks.
Could thoughts about seeking and awakeness be prevented from appearing?

Who or what could do the preventing,?


All best

Jon

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FyodorFinder
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Re: Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:43 am

Could thoughts about seeking and awakeness be prevented from appearing?

Who or what could do the preventing?
Nothing.

It still feels like "I" have to accept this.... But I know there's nothing here to accept nothing can be done about nothing.

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JonathanR
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Re: Clearing

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:32 am

It still feels like "I" have to accept this
This is where we need to focus.

Please take a little time to look at this feeling. The key is to find out exactly what is going on. Exactly what is this 'I'?

It will be very easy and tempting to jump straight away to deductions such as "there is no self or 'I', ". Even though this is technically true, such argument may be used to bypass the real issue of doubt, so it's very important to simply admit the element of confusion and look straight to that. Does that make sense?

This feeling of 'I'. Look at it over the course of today and notice whenever it appears. If possible, make a note or two of the circumstances and write a brief account of how it was experienced.

all best,

Jon

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FyodorFinder
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Re: Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:37 am

This feeling of 'I'. Look at it over the course of today and notice whenever it appears. If possible, make a note or two of the circumstances and write a brief account of how it was experienced.
Example #1:
At yoga last night, the teacher played a song "I" didn't like during corpse pose, and "I" felt bad for how angry I was at something so inconsequential. However, I was able to take the label away from the experience and just feel the actual experience: the tension in the body, the subsequent train of thought, the desire to move or sigh or somehow communicate "my" discontent. This all felt real, and yet rose spontaneously - it's not like there was something there planning to get irritated and then executed the plan. It just happened.

Example #2:
Thoughts are seemingly planning this sentence, and yet there is nothing initiating these thoughts, planning the planning of the thoughts. The thoughts and actions are just happening.

It's like something either wants to take credit, or blame, but there is no experience of ever finding this apparent source. It's just another experience.

The actual feeling of I is experience. Stuff happening. Including...everything. That's all I can really conclude: stuff is just happening, for reasons I can't understand, and the thing trying to understand is just more of that experience.

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JonathanR
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Re: Clearing

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 am

. However, I was able to take the label away from the experience and just feel the actual experience: the tension in the body, the subsequent train of thought, the desire to move or sigh or somehow communicate "my" discontent. This all felt real, and yet rose spontaneously - it's not like there was something there planning to get irritated and then executed the plan. It just happened.

Is there any control over when or if noticing labelling happens? Or noticing sensations?

Is it possible to prevent the thought 'I' from appearing?

Thank you

Jon

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FyodorFinder
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Re: Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:41 pm

Is there any control over when or if noticing labelling happens? Or noticing sensations?

Is it possible to prevent the thought 'I' from appearing?
No, it is as attention is. A mysterious roving of something. Sometimes there is noticing and sometimes not.

And no.... There is no way to prevent it from appearing. What could prevent I from appearing, if there is no apparent source?

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JonathanR
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Re: Clearing

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:06 am

Thank you
. So, something here doesn't feel awake, and that is confusing. I spend a lot of my day seeking more of what I've already apparently "found" - or, lost. Perhaps this is only residual conditioning? Or does one need have to No Self insight multiple times for this feeling of self to fully drop away?
I've gone back to this statement of yours because this is how you were talking a few days ago.

Has there been any chance in your feelings about the 'something here doesn't feel awake'? Or is the seeking more still bugging ?

If thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing what is to prevent thoughts about this or that?, including 'not feeling awake'?

No self is seen many many times. The self that seems to need to fall away is seen through many times.


Jon

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FyodorFinder
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Re: Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:48 pm

Has there been any change in your feelings about the 'something here doesn't feel awake'? Or is the seeking more still bugging?
It seems like there is some realizing that whatever is here is beautiful in whatever form it arises. Seeing seeking as another feeling to be felt allows it to arise without resistance. Also possible the seeking is not for more or from a place of belief in self, but some curiosity that wishes to know more of itself.

The seeking seems more peaceful, then, knowing it can't be other than something dancing its dance.
If thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing what is to prevent thoughts about this or that? Including 'not feeling awake'?
This has lessened the resistance to thought. It all becomes enjoyable, even seeking, if it's just something playing itself out like any other phenomena.

Really it seems like this all comes down to wanting to have a different experience than now. But that's not possible. So... Surrender to what is seems to be happening.

This dialogue is helping.

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FyodorFinder
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Re: Clearing

Postby FyodorFinder » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:00 pm

There was also the feeling last night of, So this is it, eh? Almost like, Wow, this is bullshit! All this seeking and just THIS is it? A peaceful feeling, although with a tinge of regret that I won't be able to fly or leap over tall buildings..

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JonathanR
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Re: Clearing

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:29 pm

Hi F,
. This has lessened the resistance to thought. It all becomes enjoyable, even seeking, if it's just something playing itself out like any other phenomena.
Wonderful. That's great.
.There was also the feeling last night of, So this is it, eh? Almost like, Wow, this is bullshit! All this seeking and just THIS is it? A peaceful feeling, although with a tinge of regret that I won't be able to fly or leap over tall buildings..
Ah. Darn it! No superpowers. :-)

The peacefulness sounds very good though.

What if seeking pops up from time to time?


All best,

Jon


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