mirage like self

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Pharao
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mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:57 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I undestand by this, that the self is a mirage like dilusion in the desert.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for James Anderson to guide me through this process, because after reading his book "The Complete Guide to Enlightenment" there are now more doubt coming up than before. I am now more confused and desperate and need his help to end clearing this doubt.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A step by step approach to see through the illusion of an existing self. To help me see the difference between stories and reality. To help me see why I am suffering and making other people to suffer. To endlissly find happiness.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
By chance, I hit the book "The Complete Guide to Enlightenment" by James Anderson , since then I'm eager to shed light on this truth.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Sarah7
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:27 am

Hi Pharoa
I’m Sarah, I believe you asked for me to guide you.
Can I presume you have read my threads before then?
Looking forward to speaking with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pharao
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:58 am

Hi Pharoa
I’m Sarah, I believe you asked for me to guide you.
Can I presume you have read my threads before then?
Looking forward to speaking with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx
Hi Sarah,

thanks a lot to accept to guide me through this process.
I have read a lot of your threads before then on Internet, and I am very excited about the still you used to guide.
I will be very happy If you could accompagne me through this journey.

au revoir
Ramses

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Sarah7
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:31 am

Hi Ramses
Is this what you want me to call you? And just asking is English your first language? If not please let me know if there are any difficulties.

So house keeping first:
In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. Read the article at for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/reso ... xperience/

Lastly please learn to use the quote function.

So from where you are now can you answer the below.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pharao
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:47 pm

Hi Sarah,
you can all me Ramses.
English is not my first language, but if there are any difficulties I’ll tell you.
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?
I think the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’' is a story. Not a separate entity. It’s just like a mirage in the desert that seems to exist but does not.
For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?
No, the self has none of the properties above. It’s a delusion to accept anyone of them.
Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?
While it is a story, it can be made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality.
And while it is so, this self can’t decide, chose, act, do and control. It can’t create or do anything else. During sleep, the self is not experienced.

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
The 'self' is a thought, it comes and go. It is impermanent. It is nowhere to be found.
Au revoir
Ramses

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Sarah7
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:07 am

Hi Ramses
I undestand by this, that the self is a mirage like dilusion in the desert.
Understood or seen?
after reading his book "The Complete Guide to Enlightenment" there are now more doubt coming up than before. I am now more confused and desperate and need his help to end clearing this doubt.
Can you explain this doubt please. What is it made up of? Is it made up of thought, thought story about....., feelings, emotions or something else? Pick it apart.
To help me see why I am suffering and making other people to suffer. To endlissly find happiness.
Is this an expectation of th8s process? You want to be happy and forever blissful? What if that doesn’t happen? Is this a description of someone else’s experience? If so is it a comparison that brought you here? An ‘I’m not experiencing this so therefore this can’t be it because he said.....blah, blah, blah...?

Can you know what another experiences? Can you experience something you don’t experience?
By chance, I hit the book "The Complete Guide to Enlightenment" by James Anderson , since then I'm eager to shed light on this truth.
What’s wrong with right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pharao
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:51 pm

Hi Sarah,
I undestand by this, that the self is a mirage like dilusion in the desert.
I couldn’t see it, because it is nowhere to be found.
Can you explain this doubt please. What is it made up of? Is it made up of thought, thought story about....., feelings, emotions or something else? Pick it apart.
After reading the following statement from the book, since then despair and confusion come up.
“We are the sum total of mind formation in the present moment.”
Doubt is a kind content of thought. Just thought. Nothing else.
Is this an expectation of th8s process? You want to be happy and forever blissful? What if that doesn’t happen? Is this a description of someone else’s experience? If so is it a comparison that brought you here? An ‘I’m not experiencing this so therefore this can’t be it because he said.....blah, blah, blah...?
After reading the text above again and again, it then seems that that has no-sense. All expectations are projections into the future. And the future is a concept. If the expectations doesn’t happen, the self could be frustrated. It could be a mystery that brought me here.
Can you know what another experiences? Can you experience something you don’t experience?
I can’t know anything, I can only have beliefs. No I can’t know what another experiences.
I don’t know if I can experience something I don’t experience.
What’s wrong with right now?
Without desires, right now is perfect as it is.

Au revoir
Ramses

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Sarah7
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:39 am

Hey Ramses
Doubt is a kind content of thought. Just thought. Nothing else.
Do you intentionally bring any of these thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and
how?
Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Is there is a thought that you can control?
Can thought think?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?
And the future is a concept. If the expectations doesn’t happen, the self could be frustrated.
So a thought frustrated by another thought? Lol. That’s funny! ;)
I can’t know anything, I can only have beliefs.
And what is belief? Another thought?
Without desires, right now is perfect as it is.
And what are desires? Are they thoughts? Comparison thoughts, story thoughts......? Or something else. Have a look.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pharao
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:20 pm

Hello Sarah,
Do you intentionally bring any of these thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and
how?
These thoughts are not intentionally brought, rather they come and go on their own.
Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?
I can’t do anything about them. I can’t send them away, neither stop them or get rid. It is impossible to suppress the next thought before it arises.
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
I am not able to know what I am going to think before I think it. I can’t predict what I could think next. That doesn’t work.
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
I have tried it but it didn’t work.
Is there is a thought that you can control?
There is no thought that I could control.
Can thought think?
Thought has no thinking brain, and therefore it couldn’t think.
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
A thought can trigger emotional reactions that lead humans experience all kind of things, i.e things that could ruin their very lives. The effect that thought have is hug.
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?
The experience of thoughts is too quick to be recognized (unreal) and could be neglected, but the experience of the content can be witnessed because it is so natural (real).
And what is belief? Another thought?
Belief is a thought that we have agreed to accept, so is also a thought.
And what are desires? Are they thoughts? Comparison thoughts, story thoughts......? Or something else. Have a look.
Desires are thoughts and nothing else.

Au revoir,
Ramses

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Sarah7
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:00 am

Hey
Thought has no thinking brain, and therefore it couldn’t think.
So just a reminder we are looking at what is actually experienced rather than what we think is experienced. So do you actually experience a thought thinking. Does that make sense?
A thought can trigger emotional reactions that lead humans experience all kind of things, i.e things that could ruin their very lives. The effect that thought have is hug.
Ok think I’m going to be happy (insert emotion here that is not felt at this moment) now...... Does it work? Do you need a thought to feel crap?
The experience of thoughts is too quick to be recognized (unreal) and could be neglected, but the experience of the content can be witnessed because it is so natural (real).
What can a thought know outside of itself? Is the content real? Have a look. See what is noticed.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pharao
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:50 pm

Hey Sarah,
So do you actually experience a thought thinking. Does that make sense?
I actually experience only a thought.
Ok think I’m going to be happy (insert emotion here that is not felt at this moment) now...... Does it work? Do you need a thought to feel crap?
I doesn’t work if I think I’m going to be happy now, but without a thought there is no feeling of being crap or feeling anything.
What can a thought know outside of itself? Is the content real? Have a look. See what is noticed.
A thought can know nothing outside of itself. The content is a statement about something, also not real.

Au revoir,
Ramses

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Sarah7
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:00 am

Morning!
Doubt is a kind content of thought. Just thought. Nothing else.
You have looked at whether thought brings emotion, and thought itself. So what is wrong with it being there? What says it shouldn’t be? So is there an expectation that doubt should disappear? If so what says that?
Is there an expectation that thought will understand this process? If so what says that?
Is there a desire for thought to stop? Or just be made up of nice thoughts? If so what says that?

What is the doubt made up of? Explore and dig deep. What do you see. And it would be useful if you can give me a more detailed answer.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pharao
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:42 pm

Morging Sarah,
You have looked at whether thought brings emotion, and thought itself. So what is wrong with it being there?
I have looked and find out that the thought triggers emotion and that another thought comes up and says that being there is wrong.
It is also a thought that says it shouldn’t be and expects that doubt should disappear. Thought also expects that doubt should disappear.
Is there an expectation that thought will understand this process? If so what says that?
Is there a desire for thought to stop? Or just be made up of nice thoughts? If so what says that?
Just a thought appears and says that thought will understand this process.
When a desire appears for thought to stop, this is also witnessed as a thought about another thought.
What is the doubt made up of? Explore and dig deep. What do you see. And it would be useful if you can give me a more detailed answer.
A doubt is a feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction that i.e this process is a lost of time and could not help to see through the illusion of the self. That suffering must continue and could never ends. The results could be just an intellectual understanding and not a truth seeing. I know that all this is just a stream of thoughts that make a story almost believable but the sentiments that are triggered thereby are so strong that all the attention are focused on them.

Au revoir,
Ramses

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Sarah7
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:35 am

Hi
I have looked and find out that the thought triggers emotion and that another thought comes up and says that being there is wrong
.
And is it thought also that explain emotion, what it is, how it’s felt and whether it’s good or bad, should be there or shouldn’t etc?
It is also a thought that says it shouldn’t be and expects that doubt should disappear. Thought also expects that doubt should disappear.
Excellent.
When a desire appears for thought to stop, this is also witnessed as a thought about another thought.
And then what happens when all of this is witnessed?
A doubt is a feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction that i.e this process is a lost of time and could not help to see through the illusion of the self. That suffering must continue and could never ends. The results could be just an intellectual understanding and not a truth seeing. I know that all this is just a stream of thoughts that make a story almost believable but the sentiments that are triggered thereby are so strong that all the attention are focused on them.
Ok so pick this apart further. You may not feel the word fear is relevant here so insert whatever you feel is more appropriate. This is a really good exercise for pick8ng apart story. Looking forward to seeing what you spot.

In order to know uncertainty or fear we have to know resistance. Fear is resistance and ‘I don’t like’. Turn towards this feeling of fear so completely, so fully, allow it into you without the slightest trace of resistance – then turn around and see what remains of the fear. Can you allow this fear so completely, even with the possibility that it might annihilate you? Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it? For who or what is it a problem that there is fear? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened. What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this fear labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant?
Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this
sensation is something labelled or called fear? Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation fear? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is fear’, ‘this is unpleasant’ or ‘this has been here for so long’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were fear? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought? The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pharao
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Re: mirage like self

Postby Pharao » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:52 am

Hi Sarah,

Sorry for being too late with my answer, but I have pondered deeply on your answers.
And is it thought also that explain emotion, what it is, how it’s felt and whether it’s good or bad, should be there or shouldn’t etc?
How could an emotion express itself otherwise without thought? Certainly, it is thought also that explain emotion, what it is, how it’s felt and whether it’s good or bad, should be there or shouldn’t etc.
And then what happens when all of this is witnessed?
There is a feeling of surrender when all of this is witnessed. A wondering of how being lost in the content of thought is so misleading.
.
.
.
What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?
I can reveal from the above that what you are pointing to here is clearly seen. That before thoughts adds to the experiencing of sensations, there is no resistance at all, no inherent fear, no problem, no worry no anything threatened, no pain, no unpleasantness.
Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it?
No, I can’t see what I essentially are already.
Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant?
I don’t know how to look as new born baby. It is impossible to experience it.

Au revoir,
Ramses


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