Invitation to begin - jump in here

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Alternate Carpark
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Alternate Carpark » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:27 pm

One more quick thing. I think it would help you if you could "get out of your head" a little. Try to let thoughts and feelings that come up just be without analyzing or judging or dwelling on them. Let them pass. They all do.
Chris, perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "getting out of my head", because if I am observing thoughts come up without analyzing, judging or dwelling on them, and let them pass instead,
I stuill have to be in my head to observe these thoughts.
Where do you want me to position my self to do these things you suggest?
See if you can ignore the constant pull to think about everything. Try to relax without getting pulled into the content of the thoughts.
Please explain to me why you think I am being pulled toward thinking.
Please explain to me how thoughts have the ability to pull me into the context of them.
"Cus if i don't understand this, it's quite possible i will continue to be pulled by them.
"Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh
-
"Let's not jump to conclusions" - Mike - MST3K

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Chris
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Chris » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:47 am

The get out of your head thing doesn't make sense to me either now that I re-read it.

If you are able to just observe the thoughts that come into your head, perhaps you'll see that the control you believe you have over them isn't as strong as you think it is. I think you said you meditate. Are you able to go long periods of time with no thought at all? Do you know what your next thought will be? Would you say that you formulate your thoughts or do they just sort of pop up already formulated?

I guess it's possible that your experience of thought is completely different than mine. What you describe, this control over thoughts that you claim to have is completely opposite of my experience. Must be interesting in your head.

Take care!

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Chris
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Chris » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:34 am

Please explain to me why you think I am being pulled toward thinking.
Please explain to me how thoughts have the ability to pull me into the context of them.
"Cus if i don't understand this, it's quite possible i will continue to be pulled by them.
Your literal interpretation of what I said about “getting out of your head” did indeed make my words confusing. In that context what I said did not make sense.

What I was trying to suggest is that you not take such a cerebral, analytical approach to what I am pointing to. It has been my experience that people are not accustomed to paying attention to direct experience and instead focus on their thoughts as opposed to their direct experience.

Your responses indicate to me that you are analyzing what we are presenting to you for errors rather than approaching this information with an open mind. I sense a lack of willingness to at least entertain the possibility that if you try what we are suggesting, you might see something that makes you question your current beliefs about the you that you think you are.

Thoughts don’t have any ability to do anything. They are just thoughts. The brain has the ability to focus attention. I am suggesting you focus attention on how the thoughts arise, how they are formulated, how they are triggered. Instead, you appear to be focusing on the content of the thoughts. There is a difference.

Hopefully this is a clearer explanation from a slightly less exhausted brain. I was practically comatose after work today. :)

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Alternate Carpark
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Alternate Carpark » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:50 pm

Please learn how to use the quote function, as you are quoting me with words i have not said or quoting without specifying who said what.

And, you missed all of these of which i would appreciate a response.
The following was me letting you know what we do here at LU:
(2)We ask them questions and request that they answer with honesty and from their own experience.
2: To which i have done. Why...do you you percieve i haven't?
Because you haven’t seen one thing we have pointed you to yet, but don’t worry, we’ll work on that.
You appear to be accusing me of being dishonest and or not expressing my own experiences.
So if you and i look at a painting in a gallery, and you share your opinion of it and i share mine, but mine is different from yours, you equate that to me lying?
We are not looking for your thoughts about the pointers or exercises. Or at least not just your thoughts about them. Your OBSERVATIONS are the most important thing to report back to us. A description of what you saw when you did the exercise, not what you thought about it.
Still not understanding you Chris.
If i am to express my OBSERVATIONS without using my mind to have thoughts to generate words to write, how am i report back to you?
My thoughts about it are my descriptions of what i saw, the same as "there is no self" are your thoughts describing what you see.
So far, from your posts I have read, it’s all about what you think and why you think it. We have helped hundreds of people see this and I can tell from your replies, you are not really looking.
Again with the accusations.
Before, if i see something different to you, i am a liar, here, if i see something different, i am simply not looking.
I have not seen you report back with anything that resembles an honest description of what you have directly experienced.
Again with the accustions.
Are you saying you have the ability to experience my experiences, to see through my eyes?
Of course not, that would be silly.
A simpler explanation of your repeated accusations is that when I see something different to you, because you believe so much that there is no self, the only thought you can generate is i must be lying or blind.
It’s all interpreted. No raw data.
If memory serves me correct, raw data is obtained by the five senses only.
So tell me Chris, of which of your five senses do you share everything you have in this thread?
In your posts it seems quite clear that you have made your conclusions about what you observed based on your current beliefs about how the world works.
Just as have you. Everyone does this.
That technique, or whatever you want to call it is not going to get you anywhere with this.
That is your opinion and you are free to have it and share it and i welcome it.
However, my observation is that i am making continuous progress.
I cannot do anything about what you observe.
You believe there is a self that owns the body and brain. Where is it? Can you see it? Can you touch it? Can you point it out to me?
I currently conclude i am a conscious being that is associated\connected with my body and mind, yes.
With what do you conclude there is no self?
When I watch my thoughts, I see that they are triggered by either some sort of external stimulus or other internal thoughts and not by a self, a thinker who creates and controls them.
This looks to me that you simply lack self awareness.
A trigger is an event that affects something other than itself.
In the context of this discussion, this something is commonly referred to as the self.
ie "that event triggered a feeling or thought in me"
You say "when i watch my thoughts"...whose thoughts? who is watching?...you said "I"...and that looks like a self to me.
Until you see this for yourself, the things I say about it will be paradoxical. I can’t explain this to you. What I can do is point you where to look. It is up to you to look.
This does not compute. You point by explaining.
Also, I am looking, though of course you believe i am not, but that's your interpretation only.
I know I am looking. I am the one experiencing looking. All you can do is interpret my words and assume i am not looking.
And you assume i am not looking because i see something differently to you.
My interpretation is different to yours, but you believe your interpretation is correct and mine not.
"Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh
-
"Let's not jump to conclusions" - Mike - MST3K

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Alternate Carpark
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Alternate Carpark » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:54 pm

Hopefully this is a clearer explanation from a slightly less exhausted brain. I was practically comatose after work today. :)
While awaiting your responses to the things you missed so that i can procedd with my response...
in this quote above...who was comatose?
"Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh
-
"Let's not jump to conclusions" - Mike - MST3K

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Chris
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Chris » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:13 pm

I have nothing further to offer you, AC. Take care and good luck on your path!

Chris

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Anki
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Anki » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:15 am

Hello. I'd be glad to assist if you are interested in seeing that there is no personal self. I have begun a fresh post on the one-on-one forum, "AC, this is your thread".

Hope to see you there.
Anki
Unleash yourself. Look, and look again. No self to unleash.

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Alternate Carpark
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Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Alternate Carpark » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:22 pm

I have nothing further to offer you, AC. Take care and good luck on your path!

Chris
I very much would have liked to discuss your accusations that i am a lair and cannot or refuse to see.
But it appears my suspicions are confirmed...you are not willing to.
Though i appreciate your effort in trying to explain the 'no self' theory Chris.
"Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh
-
"Let's not jump to conclusions" - Mike - MST3K

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Alternate Carpark
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:11 am
Location: Tazzie, Oz

Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Alternate Carpark » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:49 pm

I very much would have liked to discuss your accusations that i am a liar and cannot or refuse to see.
But it appears my suspicions are confirmed...you are not willing to.
Though i appreciate your effort in trying to explain the 'no self' theory Chris.
I have to do this 'cus this forum does not have a standard edit feature, or i can't find it.
Chris did not accuses me of being a liar, not a lair. That would be silly.
I usually don't bother with typos, I make a ton of them, but 'cus this forum hasn't got an edit feature, or i can't find it, i have to triple check my text before posting, even though some typos still get through.
They are quite persistant and sneaky...the little rascals.
"Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh
-
"Let's not jump to conclusions" - Mike - MST3K

User avatar
Alternate Carpark
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:11 am
Location: Tazzie, Oz

Re: Invitation to begin - jump in here

Postby Alternate Carpark » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:00 pm

I have to do this 'cus this forum does not have a standard edit feature, or i can't find it.
Chris did not accuses me of being a liar, not a lair. That would be silly.
I usually don't bother with typos, I make a ton of them, but 'cus this forum hasn't got an edit feature, or i can't find it, i have to triple check my text before posting, even though some typos still get through.
They are quite persistant and sneaky...the little rascals.
HAH ! See...more typos.
I meant to say, Chris accused me of being a liar, not a lair.
"Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh
-
"Let's not jump to conclusions" - Mike - MST3K


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