Undoing

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pcshakesby
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Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:13 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that my concept, my mental construct of the self is not true. It is something created that feels very real, but in reality does not exist. I have worked hard for many years to unravel this illusion, but really understand it mentally without any direct experience of what the truth is.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for somewhere to write an honest and direct conversation to dig through the illusion.
I think fear of the unknown, of change of self doubt is blocking my ability to surrender. I realised over the last year, that I was projecting these fears outwards. I also realised I was looking for the answers in people, in books, in more information.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honesty, reality, integrity. The process of having someone to talk to, will make this process more directed I think, it will also keep my honest. I am only looking for someone to question my "beliefs" and challenge my asumptions .

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have worked using Radical undoing processes for 10-12 years, this has allowed my to remove much, but not step over.
I have read Jed Mckenna, Many books from Original Falcon, the Occult etc I seem have always being seeking, without finding.
I also like Star Wars

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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poshgeek
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Re: Undoing

Postby poshgeek » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:46 pm

Hi pcshakesby,

Nice to meet you here at LU.
What would you like me to call you?

We can have a conversation and see what happens. All I ask of you is to be completely honest and write from your experience alone, not from what you have read or heard or learned so far, but what you can observe yourself. Let me in on your process, whether you think you’re doing well or not. This is your process, I can show the way, you are the one to do all the work :)

I understand that my concept, my mental construct of the self is not true. It is something created that feels very real, but in reality does not exist.

So tell me, how was this something created? How did this mental construct come to be? Please explain it to me, as if I didn’t know about the subject.

And describe to me how you experience, how you perceive, how you feel that your self is very real.


I’m looking forward to our conversation!

Love,
Sarah

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:41 pm

Hi Sarah,
Really nice to meet you, and as agreed I will be nothing but honest
So to Kick this off
“How was this something created?
How did this mental construct come to be? Please explain it to me, as if I didn’t know about the subject”
I aren’t sure when it was created, The “Paul” seems to be constructed and maintained by thoughts, tension, experience and fear - it is like an avatar. The thoughts and fears of future and past lead to not seeing the world “as is”, but sort of seeing it on a screen in my head, and the moments of happiness or fear in my body. Watching teenagers (my days are enjoyed teaching) I notice how fear of rejection and the need for fitting in / social acceptance or “love” create more body tension and self image / self esteem.

“describe to me how you experience, how you perceive, how you feel that your self is very real.”
There seems to be something in the way of direct experience, an obstruction to openness and real feeling. thoughts seem to interfere with daily
Interactions, as do uncomfortable feelings about the future! Fear blocks some of my interactions, and I seem to cling onto certain thoughts regarding self worth, finances and day to day “am I good enough!” I sometimes feel like a fraud.

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:44 pm

How do I feel the self is real?
I aren’t sure I do, I have looked a little and can’t locate it but I do feel something - aliveness? I am? Something? This leads to a lot of intellectualisation about what that is without direct experience.

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:45 pm

Hi Sarah
Yes also you can call me Paul.
I am finding myself playing a game of hide and seek.
I keep hunting for my self.
How can I do this? How can I remove the separation I feel

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poshgeek
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Re: Undoing

Postby poshgeek » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:36 am

Hi Paul

Here is how quoting works

Definition
Sometimes a (re-)definition of words is necessary so that we understand each other exactly.
Direct experience: is what you perceive with your senses, see, hear, smell, taste, touch and bodily sensations. Also your emotions and the thoughts that come up with it. But not follow up thoughts like interpretations, previous experience, things you read or heard.
For the purpose of this inquiry, do you agree to this definition?

Exercise
Ok, here’s your first exercise. For exercises find a quiet spot where you are undisturbed. Take your time. Observe and then describe to me, what you have observed. Focus on what you perceive with your senses, you emotions and the thoughts that come up with the exercise ( = direct experience) but ignore everything that you already knew before the exercise.

Happy hunting!

Love, Sarah

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:11 pm

Hi Sarah
I agree with the definition
Will report later
Thanks again

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:54 am

Hi Sarah
Here is what I have observed from sitting
I notice the breath coming in and out, and thoughts.
Sometimes I get lost into thoughts, and catch myself
There are sensations in my body and emotions that come and go
With focus I notice tension here in the body, a question comes up if the tension is before the emotion / sensation or afterwards. Mostly the tension is in the chest / lower abdomen.
There are itches, aches, flickers in the body, thoughts about time.
I hear sounds outside the house of traffic, and the sound of my family inside the house
The birds are singing / calling / making noises
I notice I am still seeing, even with my eyes closed doing this exercise

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poshgeek
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Re: Undoing

Postby poshgeek » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:46 pm

Hi Paul
I notice I am still seeing, even with my eyes closed doing this exercise
What do you see with your eyes closed? Real or imaginary things?

Definition
Let’s sort all things into three categories: real things (objects like table. can be touched), virtual things (like university. language constructs. important for communication. usually consisting of real objects (like teachers, tables)) and imaginary things (like batman, unicorn).
So "real" means anything, that I can experience through DE (direct experience). For the purpose of this inquiry, do you agree?

And now it's time to explore your thoughts! This is exciting! :)

Exercise
Where do your thoughts come from?
Sit and explore. How does "thinking" work? Where do thoughts come from? Can you know your next thougt? What influences thoughts? Get to know everything there is about thinking.

Looking forward to your finidings!

Love, Sarah

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:20 pm

Ha ha!
I agree with the definition of "real things", "virtual things" and imaginary things.
So thoughts exercise next! Will write again later

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:11 am

Hi Sarah
Ok, thoughts
Where do they come from, I don't know!
They seem to come into awareness from nowhere,
Can you know your next thought, I don't think so!
What influences thoughts?
Now this is a good question
At present I think that is my "sense of self" a filter through which they either flow or "stick"
My wants, interests, studies, basically my attention seems to influence the focus of thought.

Best wishes

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poshgeek
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Re: Undoing

Postby poshgeek » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:21 pm

Very good!

Now remember that these exercises are not questions that are to be answered correctly and when you’re done with all of them you’ll be enlighted :)

There are no right or wrong answers, there’s only your experience. And for me to understand you and where you stand I’m going to need you to be more verbose. Maybe really describe what you experienced or the line of thought that lead you to a conclusion. Let me in on your process.

Exercise
Where do your thoughts come from? Pick one thought, name it, and try to figure out, what could possibly have triggered this specific thought. Do this with a few thoughts.
Are there different types or categories of thoughts, sorted by content or origin?
Explain your findings to me.

Looking forward! <3

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:56 pm

Ha ha! Yes I know this is not a tick sheet!
I'll try to be more verbose,
The line of thought that led me to the conclusion is the direct experience that there is "no personal self"
I cannot find a "me".
To be honest I do think I get it, I clicked a week or so, but wanted to go through the process anyway, in a way a need for comfirmation, It seems I am presently integrating what I now know after the shock and realisation of seeing through the illusion of the self, and realising "what is" versus the expectations of "what is". I do feel like the kid who is told Santa isn't real, to coin a phrase. That has led to some existential shock!

I can "see" thoughts, patterns and sensations. I can experience "fear" and look behind it. There is still an "I" though.

My thoughts come from nothing, no where. I can label them with my mind, and attach to them and make them appear "real" but they are still just thoughts, with no substance.
I can put them into categories - is sensation a thought? I don't think so, I would say that's a direct experience which I don't think thought is? Thought is a labelling move, yes that makes sense. Thoughts are the mind labelling things that are already there, and then the body reacts to those thoughts with tension or feeling.
Categories of thought are "jobs" or "missions" as in " I remember I need to do that" which leads to anxiety.
"Stuff" which is things I would like, or want. Btw when I just act and don't think, e.g. Get out of bed there is no real anxiety just action. So in terms of nothing or nowhere, thoughts are there before the label, I'm possibly confusing thoughts with memories, which seem to come from the body.
are there different types of categories of thoughts, sorted by content or origin
So after the above ramblings, yes I think they are
There are thoughts that are labelled sensations from the body
There are thoughts which become stories which become anxiety
There are thoughts which are memories
There are thoughts of the future and the past

I take back the whole first section, perhaps I don't get it!!
I do experience, behind all the thoughts, sensations, feelings there is a watcher, an observer of it all. A sense of "being"

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pcshakesby
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Re: Undoing

Postby pcshakesby » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:01 pm

Oh, and please, don't let me off the hook,
The point here is to "get it" not pretend or tick a list
I totally agree x

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poshgeek
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Re: Undoing

Postby poshgeek » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:57 pm

So you crashed the gate all by yourself a week ago? That is so awesome!
Universe 1, Sarah 0 points.
:D

Paul, I'd love to keep chatting until you're all settled in. And to root out what makes you doubt it happened. I'll adapt a little though.

Thanks for your report on the thougt exercise. Nice work. Let's summrarize:
  • Our mind is a labelling maching, running wild, putting nametags on everything. You have no control over it whatsoever. So first there is direct experience, then comes the thought containing a label to name the experience. But that label is not the real thing, it just points to the real experience. That label is a story of the experience.
  • Thoughts are a containers and have a content
  • A thought itself, the container can be direct experience, just showing up in your awareness
  • Thought content is always a story. Thought content is never real
  • I is just a thought, therefore it cannot be real.
  • Thoughts can also trigger feelings and vice versa.
  • Thoughts, stories that are not real can still trigger direct experience: I fear to lose my job (story), the thought makes my stomach contract, I feel (real) pain in my stomach.
Amazing, isn't it?
Anything to add?


Exercise
Now the observer.
Inspect "seeing" itself. The english language suggests there are three parts to seeing: there is a seer, you, subject, a seen, table, object, and the action itself, seeing. Is that true?


Love, Sarah


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