Mumon-kan

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arcturus
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Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:27 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
LU does not teach to eliminate "self". LU teaches that "self" does not exist from the beginning. I understand like that.

What are you looking for at LU?
I tried the exercise introduced in the LU forum and found that "self" was not behind a simple action. I also discovered that simple thinking is not mine. However, even now, when I think about "plan of work" or "deposit account", I feel there is "self" there. Also, when criticized by someone and I refute it, I feel "self".

This "self" is not always there but it seems to appear from time to time. I want to be convinced that this "self" I feel is not substantive.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like guide to correctly point out the illusion that "self" exists. Also, please let me realize how I forget the simple fact that there is only "life".(note:I am poor at English, so I want you to use simple English for the guide.)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I practiced OSHO meditation and Douglas Harding exercises. Through that practice, I felt that there is no "self", but I feel it is a temporary experience.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Artst
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby Artst » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:55 am

Dear arcturus,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. :-) I'm glad you made it here.

My name is Robyn, and I can be your guide if that's okay with you. If so, do you want me to continue to call you arcturus or would you prefer another name?
LU teaches that "self" does not exist from the beginning. I understand like that.
I will do my best to guide you to see that the “self” is not real. The goal is for you to look (as you did in the exercise) and DISCOVER this rather than understand it.

Before we go on, here are some things to help you get started.

-This is a link to a youtube video that shows how to use the quote function in your posts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

-Please try to keep up posting every day if you can for the sake of momentum; However things come up of course and that's okay; just let me know when you're unable to respond and I will do the same for you.

-Think of this as writing in a journal, feel free to be 100% honest and just write what's true for you. It's generally helpful to put aside teachings, books, and videos for the time being so you can be more available to focus on your own experience. That's where we'll look.

-If I write something and you don't understand the English words, please ask me and I'll do my best to explain.

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Sending love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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arcturus
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:12 am

Dear Robyn

I appreciate your reply. Please be my guide.
And Call me "arcturus".

I am sorry that my reply to you was delayed.

note:
From December 30th to January 3, I can't send
message to you.

Regards,
arcturus

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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby Artst » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:49 am

Hi, arcturus,

Great, let's get going! Thank you for letting me know when you will be unavailable.

I want to ask you some more about your expectations.
What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
What do you want not to happen?
What are you hoping for?
Please make a list of all the things that should be different when you realize there’s no separate self.

arturus, Is there I?

I look forward to your reply.

WIth love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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arcturus
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:26 am

Dear robyn

I answer questions from you.
What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
What are you hoping for?
Please make a list of all the things that should be different when you realize there’s no separate self.
*I will not be afraid of life.
*I will not be of death.
*I will not worry about the future.
*I will not regret the past.
*I will accept reality and relax.
*I will feel comfortable when I am just keeping quiet.
What do you want not to happen?
*I will lose the meaning of life.
*I will lose my motivation to work.
*I wiil not be able to make plans for the future.
arturus, Is there I?
Maybe there is.

Regards,
Arcturus

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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby Artst » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:50 am

HI, Arcturus,

Welcome back. Thank you for your honest answers. Honesty is so important in this process.

Now that you have identified and shared your expectations, I ask that you put them aside, that you let go of them. You may still have a thought about an expectation from time to time, but you can just notice the thought. Please know that the aim here is for you to simply see that "I' is an illusion. All those things you want to happen and think should happen may not happen. Furthermore, holding onto the expectations and hopes is likely to get in the way of your seeing the reality of no self.
I will lose the meaning of life.
I will lose my motivation to work.
I wiil not be able to make plans for the future.
Don't worry - you will not lose anything. There is nothing to fear from seeing the truth of no self.


Are you ok with letting go of your hopes and expectations?
Maybe there is.
if you are fine with letting go of your expectations and hopes, please tell me, arturus, what do you mean by this, that "maybe there is." When you look for I, where do you find it?

I look forward to your reply.

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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arcturus
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:22 am

Dear Robyn
Are you ok with letting go of your hopes and expectations?
Yes,I try it.
if you are fine with letting go of your expectations and hopes, please tell me, arturus, what do you mean by this, that "maybe there is." When you look for I, where do you find it?
When I asked myself, "Is there I?", I felt that the questioner(=arcturus) was "I".
I felt that there is "I" behind the words of the question.
However, since that feeling is not certain, I wrote "Maybe".

Also, I felt the observer who watching the questioner and respondent was "I".
The observer was behind my eyes,inside my head.I felt that.

I am confused as I write this. Because I do not know what I am. Nevertheless, I feel that there is "I".

Regards,
Arcturus

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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby Artst » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:44 am

Hi, Arcturus,

Ok!
The observer was behind my eyes,inside my head.I felt that.
Good to know how it seems. When you look closer, is there really an observer or is it all one thing?

When you say it's inside your head, can you actually find a separate entity in there? If so, please describe it in terms of its physicality -- like when you describe an apple, it's a certain size, shape and color.

I look forward to your reply.

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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arcturus
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:45 am

Dear Robyn
When you look closer, is there really an observer or is it all one thing?
I can not observe "observer" as an object.

It is like the eye can not see the eye itself.

However, since the phenomenon "observation" is occurring, it is felt that there is an "observer".
When you say it's inside your head, can you actually find a separate entity in there? If so, please describe it in terms of its physicality -- like when you describe an apple, it's a certain size, shape and color.
I feel that I am observing from the inside of my head. However, I can not observe that "observer" because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I can not grasp the "observer" .

Regards,
Arcturus

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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby Artst » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:14 am

Hi, arcturus,

Thank you for your message.
It is like the eye can not see the eye itself.
You can touch an eye and experience it directly. Can you do that with this observer you refer to?
I However, I can not observe that "observer" because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.
No -- the way this process works is that you look at direct experience. Take a look, just the way you would look for anything else in the real world. So, please locate and describe this observer/entity in terms of its physicality, if you can find it -- like when you describe an apple, it's a certain size, shape and color.

I look forward to what you discover.

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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arcturus
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:41 am

Dear Robyn
You can touch an eye and experience it directly. Can you do that with this observer you refer to?
No. I could not experience the observer directly.

No -- the way this process works is that you look at direct experience. Take a look, just the way you would look for anything else in the real world. So, please locate and describe this observer/entity in terms of its physicality, if you can find it -- like when you describe an apple, it's a certain size, shape and color.
I could not find the observer.

However, I felt that "I" can not find the observer, that feeling is observed.

Regards,
Arcturus

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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby Artst » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:22 am

Hi, arcturus,

Good job looking.
However, I felt that "I" can not find the observer, that feeling is observed.
I think you are expressing a belief that if you feel something, there must be an observer to feel it. If so, I ask you to set that belief aside and only consider what you can directly experience, not what you think or believe.

Please do this exercise: Go somewhere in your house and find something that has a scent. Close your eyes and smell it. Is there the smell plus an observer smelling it or is there just the smell happening? Tell me what you discover.

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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arcturus
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:54 am

Dear Robyn
Please do this exercise: Go somewhere in your house and find something that has a scent. Close your eyes and smell it. Is there the smell plus an observer smelling it or is there just the smell happening? Tell me what you discover.
I tried this exercise, but I could not distinguish it.

So I tried it with taste.

Then, the taste occurred inside the mouth and disappeared. It just happens.

Regards,
Arcturus

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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby Artst » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:50 pm

Dear Arcturus,
Then, the taste occurred inside the mouth and disappeared. It just happens.
Nicely done.

Please try a similar experiment. Spend a few seconds looking at something, anything. Is there a separate entity seeing or does seeing just happen?

If the answer is that it just happens, please tell me what comes up when I say there is no I. Other than a thought, is there an I?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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arcturus
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Re: Mumon-kan

Postby arcturus » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:31 am

Dear Robyn
If the answer is that it just happens, please tell me what comes up when I say there is no I. Other than a thought, is there an I?
When I say "There is no I", that word just happens and just disappears.

That phenomenon just happens, and there is no "I".

However, when I look at my own body, I still feel "this is MY body".

Regards,
Arcturus


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