futties

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russ
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futties

Postby russ » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:10 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
LU will facilitate the process of deepening the understanding that there is no 'i' , no 'me' , no 'self' through direct questioning pointing to the actual looking at the truth and reality of this

What are you looking for at LU?
guided assistance - to look deeply at the truth of life experience, that there is no 'self', no separate identity running the show, - to embrace the unknowable nature of the flow of life existence -to enable the giving to others of this liberated knowing

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
i expect to find and see the truth about the 'self' in a deeply held way, that will allow the stepping into the flow, where attachment and identification with 'i' can then fall away, revealing unconditional love and its expression

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
4 years of yoga and meditation, a few vipassana 10 day retreats, reading of insightful authors such as eckhart tolle, deepak chopra, wayne dyer, ram dass, dalai lama, tony parsons....the last few years i dropped the yoga and meditation as i corrupted my practice with attachment to the teacher,....lately have read little, preferring to experience life than read about it. i realise that it is time to give to others, help them to see the truth of their own natures. but i have to liberate my own consciousness before i can help others do this

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:50 pm

Hello Rus,

Welcome to LU :). It was a pleasure reading your introduction; I personally relate to much of what you wrote. My name's Wesley, if you agree I can guide you.

I also did some yoga and meditation as well, though my practice before LU was mainly Zen. And I can also relate to attachment to teachers, I think a lot of us who come to LU go through that ;).
lately have read little, preferring to experience life than read about it.
Wonderful :). Let's start here, as I have just a few guidelines before we begin guidance. You said you prefer experiencing life than reading about, so you've already started on what I will ask of you during this inquiry - Please for the time of this inquiry set aside all books, teachings, teachers, videos, anything that is not coming from your own direct experience. None of that will help, you simply need to look at your own experience to see what's true.

-Please try and post every day, this will help keep up your momentum during this inquiry. Things come up of course, if so just let me know and I can do the same for you.

Here's how to use the quote function: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Everything sounding okay so far? If so, we can begin.
i expect to find and see the truth about the 'self' in a deeply held way, that will allow the stepping into the flow, where attachment and identification with 'i' can then fall away, revealing unconditional love and its expression
-Imagine the moment of seeing through this self, what will it be like? Describe it.
-What will change? What will stay the same?
-Will something disappear? Will something appear?
-Do you have any fears surrounding this inquiry? Are you afraid you will lose something, or perhaps "I" will vanish/die?

Feel free to write and express yourself here.

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:51 pm

Woops, forget an 's' in your name! While I'm at it, would you like to go by 'Russ' or something else?

-W
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:20 am

Woops, forget an 's' in your name! While I'm at it, would you like to go by 'Russ' or something else?

-W
Hi WEsley, so good to connect with you. thankyou for offering to guide me through this experience. YOu sound like the perfect person to help me to step through that gate. i am very keen to get through this....i would like to go by Russ for the duration!....so to your questions.

-Imagine the moment of seeing through this self, what will it be like? Describe it.
After reading through the transcripts in the "GAteway/Gatecrashers" book on the LU site, i had moments of such lightness, smiling at the ease of it, of seeing through the illusion of the self. i had a taste of what it would be like to have no fear, as if there is no self, there is no point to the fears that currently pervade my life and the obviousness of that was such a relief, like a weight lifted. But it was momentary.


-What will change? What will stay the same?
i imagine the content of my thoughts and the vibration of my feelings will become lighter. i hope the experience of fear will weaken and fall away as the perception of needing to protect my self image is seen for the illusion it is. i guess those thoughts and feelings that give rise to fear will still appear, but i will let them go. 'i' thoughts will still arise but hopefully attaching an energy to them will be seen as unnecessary. my body will still sense what it senses.

i think something will just be seen through, the veil will lift, and the beauty of the natural state of things will become obvious and appreciated.

-Do you have any fears surrounding this inquiry? Are you afraid you will lose something, or perhaps "I" will vanish/die?
i guess i am afraid that i won't be able to sustain what this inquiry will help me to see, and 'i' will continue to suffer. i have held on to a self image and invested so much energy in maintaining it, i guess i am afraid i will not see the way to let go of it, won't surrender to the truth. but i really want to end this false way of seeing.

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:03 pm

Hi Wesley....just a little more on what i am fearing arose during the night...so am adding to my post of yesterday....and trying out the quote feature that i didn't get quite right yesterday....
-Do you have any fears surrounding this inquiry? Are you afraid you will lose something, or perhaps "I" will vanish/die?
whenever i stand in the gateway, heart opening, listening inwardly, the urge to step forward present,....i fear the unknown, the not knowing, the freedom, ....and step back and close up, contracted, failing to trust that what comes next is perfect .....it may be a fear of dying to the self, of the 'i' not being needed ....it is irrational, but real sensation, and a stumbling block....but if there is no "i"?.....really want to see this truth for myself in a deeply held solid way.

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:17 pm

Hi Russ,

Great introduction and thanks for the answers to the questions. This is a great start :).

Expectations play a big part in this inquiry, for some they can be the crux of it. With this is mind, as much as you can, be open to questioning your expectations as many of them are likely built from assumptions/have no real basis from experience. It may seem like you're having your dreams and hopes crushed, what you thought awakening or the ending of a self would be like...But there is nothing to fear, as you are already free and even now there is no separate "me" that's reading this.

How we tend to think is we have some image or idea and then we confirm it in many ways. We assume a self onto our experience and from there it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. What we're going to do is sort of a reverse, and I personally view it as more scientific. Where's the proof of this self? Let's look as hard as we can for the real self, the real separate 'me' that these thoughts are always going on about, that people always refer to.
whenever i stand in the gateway, heart opening, listening inwardly, the urge to step forward present,....i fear the unknown, the not knowing, the freedom, ....and step back and close up, contracted, failing to trust that what comes next is perfect .....it may be a fear of dying to the self, of the 'i' not being needed ....it is irrational, but real sensation, and a stumbling block....but if there is no "i"?.....really want to see this truth for myself in a deeply held solid way.
Lovely, thanks for writing this. I can tell you are earnest in wanting to find out and that you want to see the truth for good. We will get to 'looking' and 'direct experience' soon.

Let's start here with what you wrote below, as I'd like to address any fear at the beginning. Please if you are ever experiencing turbulent emotions or fear or anything, don't hesitate and we can look at it. It is natural to come up and this inquiry is not meant to be always easy, so be gentle on yourself too.
i guess i am afraid i will not see the way to let go of it
Fear enough. How would you let go of it? And can you let go of something if you cannot find it?

Looking forward to your answers,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:08 am

Hi Wesley, Thanks for your feedback. You have a gentle way with your words that makes it feel very safe to do this exploring. you ask
How would you let go of it? And can you let go of something if you cannot find it?

THe first things that come up when i consider the "How" in that question refer to some instances of letting go in my past. Like when i did a parachute jump....and clambering out the door of the plane, thousands of feet up, reaching out for the wing strut and hanging on as my body dangled in the sky. The hardest thing was letting go of that strut even though i was attached to a static line and knew the parachute would open when i fell from the plane. The letting go took commitment (to the jump) and will (to open my hands and let go of the strut)....so that was letting go of something physical.....then there's letting go of a behaviour....like eating chocolate, which i used to do, and these elements of commitment and willpower did not enable me to "let go" of that behaviour.that way was a constant battle with desires... what happened was i got a new job and put my energy and focus into doing my best in that ....and i loved the people and the job....andafter a while i noticed the behaviour just disappeared. i was nolonger drawn to eating chocolate.....so letting go required a positive focus for my energy...so these are two different ways of letting go, but these are tangible things being let go of. can they help with something like the self when the self is intangible.... when i look at your question i wonder "who is the 'i' letting go, and 'what' is being let go of? It is so fuzzy and intangible to think of this.
"I" in this instance seems to be an energy ofwatchful intent to let go,....the "it" to be let go of is the self or self image. The self image is a thought about a body with a set of character traits and behaviours that i have come to see as my Self. but as you ask in your second question
can you let go of something if you cannot find it?
where is the self that i have thoughts and images of and which 'I" want to let go of? Intellectually i understand that the thoughts are real.....but the self is not real.....i can't let go of something that doesn't exist....sometimes i have a sense of fighting to break free, and an awareness arising that i am simply putting my energy into punching air. there is nothing to fight. the self i am fighting to protect or let go of doesn't exist. poof!! there is nothing there!! so what's to fight?.....
i'll leave it there for now....

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:29 pm

Hi Russ,
Thanks for your feedback. You have a gentle way with your words that makes it feel very safe to do this exploring. you ask
I'm glad to hear this. This inquiry can be intense enough, I don't intend to make it any harder. I'm here to support you, but at the same time to make you look at your direct experience.

Wow I have never done a parachute jump, this sounds like quite a visceral experience :D.
so these are two different ways of letting go, but these are tangible things being let go of.
Right. If I ask you right now to pick up a glass and then to let go of the glass, there is absolutely no confusion. A child could do this. First, a 'glass' represents something findable - something which you can taste/touch/smell/feel/hear. Second, 'letting go' refers to the action of your hand opening up, also something that can be perceived with the senses.

However, what happens if I say "let go of the self" ? If I ask you right this moment to 'let go of the self,' how would you do it? Where do you find it? And what/where is the one that is letting go of this self?

While you are considering these, try and stay only with your direct experience - what you can see/smell/taste/touch/hear. If you can't find it or answer it, than you can simply say "I can't find it" or "I can't do it", something along those lines.

Let me know what you find,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:13 pm

HI Weslsey,
YOu ask....
what happens if I say "let go of the self" ? If I ask you right this moment to 'let go of the self,' how would you do it? Where do you find it?
I can't find a self to let go of. i am aware of components of a self - my body sitting, hands typing, eyes reading, thoughts arising, intent to see arising, but i don't know where in all of that resides a self.
And what/where is the one that is letting go of this self?
there is a sense of some kind of awareness or energy that is holding space running the show....holding everything together...there are feelings of expanding or contracting, an inner listening, an energetic sense as if something (the "I") is waiting for inspiration to arrive from somewhere....or is there just awareness arising?

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:15 am

Hi Wesley,
It is evening, and i have had the day to consider further your instructions from this morning, and i have tried to find the
what/where is the one that is letting go
with my senses. i mentioned in my earlier post about a felt sense of energy, a witness perhaps, but i cannot see it, or touch it, or in any way sense with my body this "one who does....". there are physical responses to ideas, such as go here, go there, sit, stand, speak this, speak that, taste this, stop here, listen now...and again energetic consequences such as heaviness, lightness,openness, tightness, intensity, ....which are sensed in the body, and accompanied by thoughts labelling these experiences and owning them...."I am tired, i feel light of heart, i feel grateful, i i enjoyed .....all these experiences just passing through the body/mind, becoming a memory....but I can't find an entity of "I" that is doing it all....it all just happens. .....
just this for now
catch up with you tomorrow...

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:48 pm

Hi Russ,

Great answers, you're diving right into this.
i am aware of components of a self
How do you know these are components of a self? Are they intrinsically as such? Are they labelled?

What makes that funny looking thing with some hair on it that we call 'arm' into 'my arm'? Was it a 'my arm' to begin with, or was it even 'arm' before it was labelled?
but I can't find an entity of "I" that is doing it all....it all just happens. .....
:D great.

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:22 am

Hi Wesley,
Thanks for your encouragement and guidance. It is so helpful to have you pointing the way. In your last post you ask :
How do you know these are components of a self? Are they intrinsically as such? Are they labelled?
Well that got me thinking! Quite sticky these thoughts about the self aren't they. I have always assumed there was a self, so body parts, mind activity, a spirit, would make up that self. i have even thought there to be a Higher SElf, which could be credited with some of my more inspired and compassionate activities....but really i am beginning to see that these components, are maybe part of a UNiversal Whole....Nature.....not mine at all. WEll there is a body, and it has limbs and organs etc, but so does the neighbours cat and dog.....and for ease of communication, this body has been given a name which I generally answer to!....but these components are just expressing Nature as it is in this moment. ....wheee! quite exciting to consider this...and delightful in a way....to see there is no owner, no self, just Nature experiencing......
Was it a 'my arm' to begin with, or was it even 'arm' before it was labelled?
It just IS....and just Does....but labelling is helpful because we use language to communicate about things....but when the label of 'self' and 'i' take on a life of their own, it is not so. in fact very unhelpful as these thoughts tend to block the ability to stay in the natural 'flow' of life....with all their self doubts, and self respect and self indulgence...it goes on to become a self absorption.....so much more helpful to see the reality of their being no self at all.....

Have to sit with all this for a while
ciao for now
Mega hug
R

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:56 am

Hi Wesley,
Just a little more on that hairy arm you ask about.....
Was it a 'my arm' to begin with, or was it even 'arm' before it was labelled?
It was always what it was, even before it was labelled. Even with a label of arm, it still just is.
So the body/mind/spirit complex is and always will be just what it is. An expression of Nature. The label Russ' or 'my body' does not make it more or less so. It just helps with communication in language....
When a baby is learning about the world around it, labels are given to things and are simple....cat. dog. car. etc ...it is only as they get older that the 'my' is introduced. my bag. my book. etc but the bag, the book, the cat, the dog...they are all just Nature expressed as those things.
A recent photo in the paper showed a creature newly discovered in one of the deepest parts of the ocean. Never seen before. It looked like something out of a DR WHO episode. But already, the 'powers that be' had given it a label. a long name i can't remember. but it occurs to me that i didn't need to know the label to see and appreciate the creature's unique form, and appreciate its existence, and it hadn't needed the label to exist.
"I" "my" "SElf" are labels not needed for a life to live, thrive and evolve.

But I do find 'i' coming up a lot in arising thoughts and i try to be aware that it is just a label, and not to attach energy to it unnecessarily
:-)

R

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:22 am

Hi Russ,

Sorry for getting back late today, was on the road longer than expected last night. Holidays...

I'm glad you're finding the guidance helpful! You're making some great discoveries. Seeing how things are labelled is an important aspect.
I have always assumed there was a self, so body parts, mind activity, a spirit, would make up that self. i have even thought there to be a Higher SElf,
Great observation :). There is an assumption (a separate self) and from that assumption we make all other sorts of assumptions and conclusions.
WEll there is a body, and it has limbs and organs etc, but so does the neighbours cat and dog.
The organs, how do you know they're there in you or in the cat and dog? Where does this information come from?

Russ, if you were to explain to me how to look for something, what is it like? Is the looking for 'me' any different than looking for your lost wallet?

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Hi Wesley,


Found your last post pointers intriguing!
The organs, how do you know they're there in you or in the cat and dog? Where does this information come from?
Knowledge about the inner workings of the body comes from medical science. Direct experience of research from dissection and study. Photos from war scenes where bodies have been wounded can also show that inside this thing we call a body are organs , blood, etc....

Russ, if you were to explain to me how to look for something, what is it like? Is the looking for 'me' any different than looking for your lost wallet?
When looking for something, i scan the memory, searching for an image or thought of where the e.g. wallet might have last been seen. i will then go and look there ....the drawer, the car,....if it is not there i will look in unlikely but possible places....a cupboard, under the bed....then when it was last used....a garage, a shop....and continue until it is found, or deemed to be lost.
I have never looked for a 'me' before. have always just used the language of 'me' 'mine' without thinking deeply about it....but in looking i can only find the object...the wallet. not any 'my' to be seen.
Just going back to the organs,.... if the chest cavity was opened up, there would be a heart found, but it is not 'my' heart, only 'heart,....transfusions and transplants prove that these elements can exist in different 'bodies' given favourable other elements e.g. a heart requires same blood type and similar age in the bodies....so, and it seems so gentle and magical to consider that all these cells that make up organs, and bodies, are not 'mine'. they are just existing and going about their functions as well as they can given the environmental support they exist in. No ownership. which inspires a kind of reverence for all of Nature

Not sure i've expressed things too well, but i am beginning to see the truth of no 'me'. It opens up a feeling of wonder at the miraculousness and beauty of life.

Many thanks for helping me to see....

R


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