I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

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Love4a11
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I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:26 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I believe that I see that there is no real inherent self. I feel that I have been experiencing this but sometimes I still falter and feel myself returning to habit, or fear and I question if I have gone through the gate all the way. I also struggle with still wanting to feel special and I see my ego resurface.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a guide to help me all the way through the gate so that I may feel that I have unquestionably experienced no self. I also am seeking community of people that are experiencing similar things so I can have and give support. My partner was somewhat scared off of the topic by not understanding Gateless Gatecrashers and has been skeptical so it would be nice to talk to others that are in the process of letting go of their baggage and hearing how they might talk to others about it. Thank you so much for being here and existing to support this amazing process. I am so grateful!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping for someone that can help guide me toward greater realization of experience of no self. I have read Gateless and Liberation and the Jed books and I just want to make sure that I am not fooling myself into thinking that I have been through the Gateless Gate and that they might help me make sure and help keep myself accountable by clear pointing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was into Gurdjieff and meditation for 5 years, then I have been in a Buddhist sangha and meditation group for 9 years. I have read the Jed books, the Gateless Gatecrashers, and Liberation Unleashed books.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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forgetmenot
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:12 am

Hi Love,
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I believe that I see that there is no real inherent self. I feel that I have been experiencing this but sometimes I still falter and feel myself returning to habit, or fear and I question if I have gone through the gate all the way. I also struggle with still wanting to feel special and I see my ego resurface.

Since there have never been an experience of a separate self, then what would the experience of a non-separate self be like? As there is no separate self, then what is it exactly that can have a “ego resurface”, let alone a “my ego resurface”? And what is it exactly that can “feel special”?


My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate inherent self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This exploration is not about discovering what you are. It is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you are not.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the supplied links and we can then start the exploration.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Love4a11
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:38 pm

Hi Kay,
Thank you so much for answering! I have read the disclaimer and the supplied links. I would love to answer your questions but I will have to do it tomorrow as I have a full day today with work and tonight I am giving a talk which does not happen very often. I am excited to start this process and I really appreciate your time!

Love,
Merri

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forgetmenot
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:44 am

Hi Merri,

Welcome to LU! No need to answer those questions....they were something for you to ponder on! There are, however, 4 questions at the bottom of this post that I would like for you to answer! :)

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. This kind of inquiry works best as a major daily commitment - a sort of relentless 'starving of the seeker', so post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to your current, direct experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value.

Imagine that you have lost your keys and you could swear you left them in your purse. But when you go to check, they are not there. You empty the purse, still no keys. You feel very strongly that they must be there because that was the last place you saw them. But they are simply not there. In this case, your actual experience contradicts what it is you are feeling. This happens all the time. The problem is that believing in your feelings and not your direct experience will keep you from understanding clearly. It is important to understand that just because you feel something is true, does not mean that it is. You can simply look and see what is true and what is not. That is the purpose of pointing and the exercises given.


To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Love4a11
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:21 am

Hi Kay!

Okay I will commit to writing every day or every other day and the other stipulations. So your first question is:
How will life change?
I guess my thought is that life will somehow be easier in terms of not feeling like I have to control it because of realizing more deeply that I can’t control life. It already has become a little easier by me feeling less solid but I still have times of habitual identification with a self. But I’m also wondering if life will not get easier because there is always a new mountain to climb to challenge me with new experiences. It will only be that my thoughts may become less identified with what I’ve thought of as easy and what is hard in life.
How will I change?
I guess I imagine that I will, over time, drop more and more of my story line becoming less attached to a solid idea of who I am. Perhaps I will be less obsessed with myself and have more energy to focus on giving to others and enjoying life’s mystery.
What will be different?
Maybe everything will be different in a way for me and nothing in the world will actually be different except my perception. I am still very interested in learning and growing. There is still a way of being that I am very familiar with that will likely continue and evolve.
What is missing?
What I think is missing is a sense of certainty that I have gone all the way through and am not fooling myself. I still have a hard time explaining this process to others and I guess I think that I will have a more solid sense of being through the gate, when I actually am, and then will answer with more confidence and clarity when confronted about where I think I am in the process.

I hope I am answering these questions in the right way. Thank you so much Kay!

Love,
Merri

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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:12 am

Hey Merri,

If you are unable to answer/respond each day, just drop me a post letting me know, that way I won’t have to chase you up! :)
I hope I am answering these questions in the right way.
There is no wrong or right way. I really enjoyed reading your responses because there does not seem to be any huge expectations. Yes, perception changes, however, there has never been a separate self, there wasn’t one yesterday and there isn’t one now who is reading this… and life has still been lifing all this time!

If at any time, resistance, anger, frustration, doubt, fear appear, just let me know so we can look at them together. Resistance is a defence mechanism and is just another form of fear, although in actual experience, there is no such thing as fear.

Throughout this exploration we use actual experience (AE) to check any claims that thoughts make. In other words we check beliefs against what actually is. So, we start off by becoming aware of what AE is.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Just a reminder that anything in blue text is what I would like you to look at and respond to please.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Love4a11
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:58 am

Hi Kay!
I definitely will post every day to let you know! Okay to your latest
questions:
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
If I am looking at a picture of an apple, then it is not an apple there, just the thought suggested by the picture of an apple.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
So a picture of an apple cannot really be found in actual experience. Only by having touched a real apple can apple be found in actual experience. A picture is like a thought, insubstantial.
However, is an apple actually known?
This is interesting. What I’m coming up with is even if you eat, touch, and smell an apple, it is not actually known. It is just as mysterious as any other kind of matter. We cannot truly know an apple. Our minds decide after having a sensation of an apple, that we know that apple, but I have no idea what an apple experiences itself. I cannot truly know an apple. It is alive and has it’s own experience that I will never truly understand. Just like myself, I think I know what I am but actually have no idea.

Thank you so much for your time Kay! I hope you have a beautiful evening or day!

Love,
Merri

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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:11 am

Hey Merri,

What I would like for you to do, is to actually grab an ‘apple’ or some piece of fruit you may have and redo the exercise. Whether or not there is a supposed ‘real’ apple, or a picture of an apple, makes no difference. Let me know what you find second time round.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
If I am looking at a picture of an apple, then it is not an apple there, just the thought suggested by the picture of an apple.

Even if it were a supposed ‘real’ apple, would there really be an ‘apple’, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?


If you IGNORE all thoughts about what thought calls an ‘apple’, what is the actual experience (AE)? Remembering that AE is sound, colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
So a picture of an apple cannot really be found in actual experience. Only by having touched a real apple can apple be found in actual experience. A picture is like a thought, insubstantial.
Same as above. Whether it is a supposed ‘real’ apple or a picture of an apple makes no never mind.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience (AE)?
However, is an apple actually known?
This is interesting. What I’m coming up with is even if you eat, touch, and smell an apple, it is not actually known. It is just as mysterious as any other kind of matter. We cannot truly know an apple. Our minds decide after having a sensation of an apple, that we know that apple, but I have no idea what an apple experiences itself. I cannot truly know an apple. It is alive and has it’s own experience that I will never truly understand. Just like myself, I think I know what I am but actually have no idea.
So that you become aware of answers that are thought and answers that come from LOOKING, what you wrote above is all thoughts ABOUT and apple and no actual LOOKING has taken place. And this is okay, because we have only just begun, and becoming aware of AE is all about learning to LOOK.

There is no separation whatsoever, so an apple does not have experiences of its own, nor is it alive any more than the separate self is!

The label ‘apple’ is know because it is AE of thought.
The image/colour labelled 'apple' is known because it is AE of colour
The taste labelled ‘apple’ is known because it is AE of taste
The smell labelled ‘apple’ is known because it is AE of smell
The sensation labelled ‘apple’ (ie, hard, smooth) is known because it is AE of sensation
The sound labelled ‘apple’ (crunchcrunch) is known because it is AE of sound
The thoughts ABOUT ‘apple’ is known because they are AE of thought

So, label, colour, taste, smell, sensation, sound and thought are known because they are actual experience (AE)….however, is an ‘apple’ actually known?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Love4a11
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:23 am

Hi Kay,

Okay I am going to do it a second time. I have an apple!
Even if it were a supposed ‘real’ apple, would there really be an ‘apple’, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Okay when I look at a ‘real’ apple, I am still only seeing a shape of something three dimensional, and having thoughts of apple. There is no such thing as ‘apple’ from AE. All I know of apple are thoughts.
If you IGNORE all thoughts about what thought calls an ‘apple’, what is the actual experience (AE)? Remembering that AE is sound, colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation.
Ignoring all thoughts of an apple, my actual experience of an apple is I see a roundish shaped object. I and smell a scent coming from it. I touch it and it is a hard, cold object.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience (AE)?
No ‘apple’ cannot be found in actual experience. There are only thoughts of an apple and AE experiences of what think of is an apple.
So, label, colour, taste, smell, sensation, sound and thought are known because they are actual experience (AE)….however, is an ‘apple’ actually known?
No, an ‘apple’ is not actually known. There are only separate AE experiences that my brain then thinks the thoughts of an apple.

Great! I feel like I am seeing a bit more.
Thanks Kay and I hope you have a beautiful day!

Love,
Merri

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forgetmenot
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 am

Hey Merri,

Nice LOOKING :)
Even if it were a supposed ‘real’ apple, would there really be an ‘apple’, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Okay when I look at a ‘real’ apple, I am still only seeing a shape of something three dimensional, and having thoughts of apple. There is no such thing as ‘apple’ from AE. All I know of apple are thoughts.
Shapes are just different patterns of colour, so what is actually appearing is simply colour. It is only a thought that says that colour has a particular shape and that the shape is that of an ‘apple’

You can do this exercise with multiple things. Try it when you are sitting watching TV or cooking dinner or typing a response to me.
If you IGNORE all thoughts about what thought calls an ‘apple’, what is the actual experience (AE)? Remembering that AE is sound, colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation.
Ignoring all thoughts of an apple, my actual experience of an apple is I see a roundish shaped object. I and smell a scent coming from it. I touch it and it is a hard, cold object.
Great!
The “roundish shaped object is simply colour
The scent is simply smell
The hard and cold is simply sensation. Hard and cold are thoughts/labels that try to describe the sensation.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience (AE)?
No ‘apple’ cannot be found in actual experience. There are only thoughts of an apple and AE experiences of what think of is an apple.
Yes, exactly. AE = actual experience – actual experience has no experiences, it is the experience  So there are only thoughts of an apple which are AE of thoughts about an apple, but no apple can be found in AE.
So, label, colour, taste, smell, sensation, sound and thought are known because they are actual experience (AE)….however, is an ‘apple’ actually known?
No, an ‘apple’ is not actually known. There are only separate AE experiences that my brain then thinks the thoughts of an apple.
Yes, however, here is no ‘you’ and a ‘brain’…we’ve broken wholeness into more bits of separateness! There is no such thing as a ‘brain’! The AE of a brain is thought. In this moment is there an actual experience of a brain, other than thoughts about a brain?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

The colour labelled 'cup' simply= colour
The smell labelled 'coffee', simply = smell,
The sensation labelled 'warmth' (of the coffee cup), simply = sensation.
The taste labelled 'coffee', simply = taste
The sound labelled 'tinkling' (spoon stirring the coffee), simply = sound
Thoughts ABOUT cup, coffee, spoon, making a cup of coffee and drinking the coffee etc, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Love4a11
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:24 pm

Hi Kay,
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
It was difficult for me to focus on experiencing my day labeling my activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought. I think I need to do this for a few days perhaps to get enough focus. And report back. I am experiencing thought, sensation (typing, sitting, dog on me), sound (clicking) and image right now as I type. I’m experiencing thought and sound of the heater going on. I have been busy with work (thought), and an acquaintance of my meditation group died yesterday (thoughts). I will try to focus more on this tonight and tomorrow.
Thank you so much for your help in this.

Love,
Merri

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forgetmenot
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:14 am

Hi Merri,....no probs as it can be challenging to change your focus from thought to what actually is..so wanting extra time is okay by me! Life gets a bit full on at times. My condolences about your friend.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Love4a11
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:41 am

Hi Kay,
Today I had a very busy day and I focused on Actual Experiences. My experience was of breaking apart my experiences to the most simple labels. I felt a calmness come over me as I saw that my thoughts and previous labels had made up a lot of what my past experiences were. Just noticing sound, sensation, color, and taste was a great exercise in seeing for me. I will continue with this tomorrow as well.

Thank you for the condolences. I appreciate your time and help.

Love,
Merri

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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:32 am

Hi Merri,
I saw that my thoughts and previous labels had made up a lot of what my past experiences were
Can you tell me more about this please?

And yes, please keep on doing the exercise, just so that you become clear to what AE is and how thought overlays AE with stories. Thought is AE but the content of thought is just further thought.

So let's have a look at thought and how they work!

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Where are they coming from and going to
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?


Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Love4a11
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Re: I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

Postby Love4a11 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:07 pm

Hi Kay,

I am so sorry I did not post yesterday. I thought I was keeping up to date. I am still working on your assignments. I can try to answer your question about what I said though:
I saw that my thoughts and previous labels had made up a lot of what my past experiences were.
Can you tell me more about this please?
When I said that my thoughts and previous labels made up a lot of my past experiences, I meant that I saw that I had not had very many AE experiences in the past, which is not surprising, but it is always interesting to come to a conclusion experientially instead of philosophicallly. Most of my experiences have been in my head, in my thoughts, and then the reminiscing of what I thought, instead of AE. I will do the thought exercise and get back to you.

Thank you so much!

Love,
Merri


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